Calvinist Robots

[DD2008]

The image of God in man is spiritual. Man is not simply a physical being, but also a moral being with a conscience, intellect, emotion, and will.

Man has a self-consciousness and a self-determination that enables him to make choices
God is a Spirit, the human soul is a spirit. The essential attributes of a spirit are reason, conscience, and will.
Man was created in “original righteousness” also referred to as “knowledge, righteousness, and holiness.” This original righteousness and holiness was lost through the fall but is restored in Christ. Ephesians 4:24 emphasizes that the new self of the believer is “in the likeness of God (and) has been created in righteousness and holiness.” Colossians 3:10 declares that the new self is “being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him,” a reference to Genesis 1:26.

Enns, Paul P.: The Moody Handbook of Theology. Chicago, Ill. : Moody Press, 1997, c1989, S. 305

That's a good explaination.

 

[DD2008]

but we have to choose to accept it

Choosing God would be a work that one could boast of. God needs nothing from people. He saves them by grace. There is not one single work a person can do that will have any effect at all on their salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=squint;

Some determinists have weighed in on this already Rick, and they SAID that there is NO WAY to quantifiably determine if you or they or anyone else is AN ELECT.

Let them eat cake enjoy their circus. Faith cannot be objectively quantified by science or logic to the point it can be measured within physical tolerances like machined parts. It's strength & maturity is measured in terms of discernable behaviour.
The "measurement problem" of science reveals the doubt involved in the need for quantifiable measurement is the real "problem" in the trouble with accepting eternal security.

Rick you do understand that the position in question CAN present that the security of the believer/saint/elect is SECURE and yet the IDENTITY of same is INDETERMINATE at the present time? And this IS the presentation of Calvinism or Reformed (as far as I know.)

I understand that we can have a bad day & identify more with our flesh than with Christ in spite of His reassurances.

Oh, quite the contrary my friend. The tares can have good works as well in Calvin land, and they will still be damned. Calvin determines such works of the damned to be only SUPERFLOUS. You could look like a believer, act like a believer, speak like a believer, BUT, if God says you are not elected, it's off to the eternal smoker ya go and all the superflous works you did wouldn't make one whit of difference.

Those did not examine their faith honestly.
Religion is superfluous without spirituality.

And again I would remind you that the determinist position in general CAN play this both ways. They CAN determine the SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER without 'specific identification' of same.

Without identification of "security" or of "believer?"

So there really is nothing more available than SELF assurances and the hope that P will apply to you, BUT even if you DID P, that may not mean that YOU are elect.

The ELECT in the end are SOLELY AT THE DISCRETION of Mr. Big...and the methodology of that ELECTION is not based upon anything that has the individual MERIT of the man whatsoever. It is strictly the DIVINE LOTTO. There is no way to predict in advance who's number may be pulled.

enjoy that one!

squint

Predicting has been oversold.
I got irons in the fire right now. lol

 

[DD2008]

Is he the same one as the owner of the Carm forum?

http://www.carm.org/apologetics/discussion-forums/authority-structure-boards

Matt Slick is the President and final authority on all matters related to CARM and the discussion boards.

I hated CARM when I was a Catholic. But now I'm really liking them. They have tons of resources besides just the forums.

I still think the CARM forums are too rough and need to be tamed down a bit though.

 

[&Abel]

16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I hated CARM when I was a Catholic. But now I'm really liking them. They have tons of resources besides just the forums.

I still think the CARM forums are too rough and need to be tamed down a bit though.

Is Matt Slick a Calvinist?

Not any worse than the GT board at CF used to be.
The RCs and Mormons do get their share of "arrows" shot at them on that forum though and it does appear to be more "laxed" as far as debating goes.

 

[DD2008]

16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off.

That just means that if you're a Christian you will continue to live a Christian life. If not, while you may have at one point regarded yourself as an elect you are actually a reprobate and will be from your perspective cut off. One who doesn't follow Christ obviously doesn't have faith in Him as is made evident by their works, regardless if they are a Church member or not.

Christ's followers hear his voice and follow him. Nothing can take them away.

John 10:27-30
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
[28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[30] I and the Father are one."

 

[Rick Otto]

Yeah, but based on DD2008, I got something of the same idea -- so it could be a more common misunderstanding. The "federal headship" of Adam - this is where also it seems to arise from, at least as I read it in the context of DD2008's post. If Christ does not have the flesh of Adam, how can His resurrection restore us ?

Spiritualy.

 

[DD2008]

Is Matt Slick a Calvinist?

Not any worse than the GT board at CF used to be.
The RCs and Mormons do get their share of "arrows" shot at them on that forum though and it does appear to be more "laxed" as far as debating goes.

I don't know him. But from browsing around the site I wouldn't be surprised if he is. There is a ton of apologetic material there that calvinist's will agree with.

 

[&Abel]

That just means that if you're a Christian you will continue to live a Christian life. If not, while you may have at one point regarded yourself as an elect you are actually a reprobate and will be from your perspective cut off. One who doesn't follow Christ obviously doesn't have faith in Him as is made evident by their works, regardless if they are a Church member or not.

Christ's followers hear his voice and follow him. Nothing can take them away.

John 10:27-30
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
[28] and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[30] I and the Father are one."

yes they hear his holy spirit and choose to follow it instead of rejecting

51"You men who are (BT)stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't know him. But from browsing around the site I wouldn't be surprised if he is. There is a ton of apologetic material there that calvinist's will agree with.

Maybe Squint would know

Originally Posted by squint
I know Matt Slick and he would never say that the male transmits sin in the dna sense of the words male transmittal.

 

[PETE_]

That's a good explaination.

Moody's works are great

It had to be a work of God for such a man as Moody to accomplish what he did

 

[DD2008]

Maybe Squint would know

Originally Posted by squint
I know Matt Slick and he would never say that the male transmits sin in the dna sense of the words male transmittal.

LLOJ,

Yes. He is certainly a Calvinist.

Check out the link.

http://www.carm.org/apologetics/responding-critics/lou-rugg

 

[&Abel]

its all about perception

we choose what we see and what we don't

we choose whether to receive instruction or get angered and reject it when we hear it

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ,

Yes. He is certainly a Calvinist.

Check out the link.

http://www.carm.org/apologetics/responding-critics/lou-rugg

Whoa! Ok thanks. I also belong to that forum ehehehe......

 

[&Abel]

Moody's works are great

It had to be a work of God for such a man as Moody to accomplish what he did

god is the one who heals us, hes the one who establishes us, hes the one who gives us peace and life and everything else...I'm not attempting to distract from that

but we have to choose to accept it!

[45] No, O Lord who art over us! But spare thy people and have mercy on thy inheritance, for thou hast mercy on thy own creation."
[46] He answered me and said, "Things that are present are for those who live now, and things that are future are for those who will live hereafter.
[47] For you come far short of being able to love my creation more than I love it. But you have often compared yourself to the unrighteous. Never do so!
[48] But even in this respect you will be praiseworthy before the Most High,
[49] because you have humbled yourself, as is becoming for you, and have not deemed yourself to be among the righteous in order to receive the greatest glory.
[50] For many miseries will affect those who inhabit the world in the last times, because they have walked in great pride.
[51] But think of your own case, and inquire concerning the glory of those who are like yourself,
[52] because it is for you that paradise is opened, the tree of life is planted, the age to come is prepared, plenty is provided, a city is built, rest is appointed, goodness is established and wisdom perfected beforehand.
[53] The root of evil is sealed up from you, illness is banished from you, and death is hidden; hell has fled and corruption has been forgotten;
[54] sorrows have passed away, and in the end the treasure of immortality is made manifest.
[55] Therefore do not ask any more questions about the multitude of those who perish.
[56] For they also received freedom , but they despised the Most High, and were contemptuous of his law, and forsook his ways.
[57] Moreover they have even trampled upon his righteous ones,
[58] and said in their hearts that there is not God -- though knowing full well that they must die.
[59] For just as the things which I have predicted await you, so the thirst and torment which are prepared await them. For the Most High did not intend that men should be destroyed;
[60] but they themselves who were created have defiled the name of him who made them, and have been ungrateful to him who prepared life for them.
[61] Therefore my judgment is now drawing near;
[62] I have not shown this to all men, but only to you and a few like you." Then I answered and said,
[63] "Behold, O Lord, thou hast now shown me a multitude of the signs which thou wilt do in the last times, but thou hast not shown me when thou wilt do them."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ unsubscribes now

 

[Thekla]

Christ willingly took on our guilt. He died. He was buried. He was ressurected.

So we are saved through Christ's righteousness that is imputed to us by grace.

but if the resurrected flesh is not the flesh of Adam, how is this effective ?

 

[&Abel]

1(A)Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as (B)aliens, (C)scattered throughout (D)Pontus, (E)Galatia, (F)Cappadocia, (G)Asia, and (H)Bithynia, (I)who are chosen 2according to the (J)foreknowledge of God the Father, (K)by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to (L)obey Jesus Christ and be (M)sprinkled with His blood: (N)May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

 

[Rick Otto]

"but if the resurrected flesh is not the flesh of Adam, how is this effective ? "

Eve's flesh was from Adam's flesh.
Her "seed" was not.