Calvinist Robots

[squint]

It means that those who are saved recognize that without God, there is no life, there is no hope, there is no salvation because God, ALONE, can provide that.

In Calvinism, no one really knows if they are saved or not except by their own best guess, let alone if anyone else is saved. So making the determinations above are still subject to what you yourself can determine and that without certainty.

And Calvinism also claims that anyone who loves, has hope, does righteousness does not matter one whit if they don't have Jesus painted across their lips. The totally depraved who DO love, have hope and do righteousness are merely doing superflous or needless acts. A random act of needlessness. They will be damned anyway.

It means that we recognize that we are sinners by nature and that only God can effect the change that is necessary to recognize good and choose to follow Him, and that when He does effect that change, we will love, honor, glorify and obey Him because it is all we live for, and because we want to please Him.

One of the most ironic points of Calvinism is that the position itself admits that no one can determine for a certainty that ANYONE is saved, but that THEY have determined, even not KNOWING for a certainty that they are saved, what Divine Sovereignty has determined in matters of salvation.

We love Him so much, we want for all the world to know it, and mourn when people refuse to hear His call. It means that God is first and foremost in our lives.

The real irony in Calvinism is that even the predestined to salvation are called TOTALLY DEPRAVED. And since there is no solid determination of their or anyone else's salvation other than their own good guessing in their own behalf and even then NO ASSURANCE for them, there is at least the potential that the position is TOTALLY FALSE.


They really should admit that without certainty of salvation, they are still POTENTIALLY technically TOTALLY DEPRAVED and they don't really KNOW if they are saved.

Yet they know what the deal for salvation is? Please. Where is the credibility in that?

 

[DD2008]

I'm still curious; where does the Bible say that man lost the image of God ?
To be nothing but 'evil', man would have had to lose the image of God with which he was created.

Do you mean that only Adam was created in the image of God ?

http://www.tecmalta.org/tft175.htm

 

[Thekla]

http://www.tecmalta.org/tft175.htm

Thank-you, though if the image is only distorted it is still image -- how is it wholly evil ? From what is derived this understanding of what the image of God "is" ? And what is the teaching on the "likeness" ?

 

[DD2008]

Thank-you, though if the image is only distorted it is still image -- how is it wholly evil ? From what is derived this understanding of what the image of God "is" ? And what is the teaching on the "likeness" ?

The bible just tells us that man is created in the image and likeness. The bible is our recognized authority. There is no official teaching on it. Because there is no one that has the authority to officially define the meaning of a verse. Here is one good explaination, however.

"The image of God in man therefore distinguishes us from all other animals on the one hand and shows our family resemblance to our heavenly father on the other. I take it that the words ‘image’ and ‘likeness’ amount to the same thing. They are not referring to different categories but are intended to emphasise & clarify the central idea."

http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=52

 

[squint]

The bible just tells us that man is created in the image and likeness. The bible is our recognized authority. There is no official teaching on it. Because there is no one that has the authority to officially define the meaning of a verse. Here is one good explaination, however.

"The image of God in man therefore distinguishes us from all other animals on the one hand and shows our family resemblance to our heavenly father on the other. I take it that the words ‘image’ and ‘likeness’ amount to the same thing. They are not referring to different categories but are intended to emphasise & clarify the central idea."

http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=52

You avoided this earlier in this thread.

All of Israel was stated in the O.T. to be Gods children. Deut. 14:1/Psalm 82:6 for reference scriptures.

Is God then The Father of the TOTALLY DEPRAVED?

 

[DD2008]

You avoided this earlier in this thread.

All of Israel was stated in the O.T. to be Gods children. Deut. 14:1/Psalm 82:6 for reference scriptures.

Is God then The Father of the TOTALLY DEPRAVED?

Man in his fallen state doesn't go around being as evil as he can possibly be at all times, but has an evil disposition and even though he has the ability to decide things will not and therefore cannot do anything genuinly good and pleasing to God. Israel is God's Chosen people, decendants of Abraham...etc

 

[Thekla]

The bible just tells us that man is created in the image and likeness. The bible is our recognized authority. There is no official teaching on it. Because there is no one that has the authority to officially define the meaning of a verse. Here is one good explaination, however.

"The image of God in man therefore distinguishes us from all other animals on the one hand and shows our family resemblance to our heavenly father on the other. I take it that the words ‘image’ and ‘likeness’ amount to the same thing. They are not referring to different categories but are intended to emphasise & clarify the central idea."

http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=52

In the LXX, and in my (Masoretic) Jewish translation of the verse (ie they are in agreement) it reads "in the image towards the likeness indicating an "is" and a "becoming".

If, in 'your' teaching, the image is what separates us from the animals and animals operate on instinct (act ineluctably), how can man act ineluctably (only away from God, or with total depravity) and still be said to be made in the image of God ?

 

[squint]

Man in his fallen state doesn't go around being as evil as he can possibly be at all times,

And this has WHAT to do with the question?

but has an evil disposition and even though he has the ability to decide things will not and therefore cannot do anything genuinly good and pleasing to God.

And this has WHAT to do with the question?

Israel is God's Chosen people, decendants of Abraham...etc

You do know how to answer a question?

IS God The Father of the Totally Depraved?

You do obviously understand that this question poses your position some degree of difficulty? And that to stand and deliver is going to take some severe wordy gyrations.

 

[DD2008]

In the LXX, and in my Jewish translation of the verse (ie they are in agreement) it reads "in the image towards the likeness indicating an "is" and a "becoming".

If, in 'your' teaching, the image is what separates us from the animals and animals operate on instinct (act ineluctably), how can man act ineluctably (only away from God, or with total depravity) and still be said to be made in the image of God ?

Man does not live on instinct. He is a thinking feeling reasoning creature. His will is in bondage to sin because of the nature of his situation of having Adam as his federal head and thus recieving this sinfulness by imputation.

So, Christ does not have the sin of Adam imputed to him because he does not have Adam as his federal head. Sin is imputed throughthe male line and Christ's father is God, so He did not have the sin of Adam. Christ then through the work of his own obedience has defeated sin and the devil and freely chose to take our sins upon himself (he wouldn't have died involuntarily because he wasn't cursed) and by the merits of Christ's ultimate act of righteousnes sinners are given the grace of salvation by the imputed righteousness of Christ which quickens their dead spirits and allows them to trust and love God in that which we call saving faith.

http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/federal-headship

 

[squint]

So, Christ does not have the sin of Adam imputed to him because he does not have Adam as his federal head. Sin is imputed throughthe male line and Christ's father is God, so He did not have the sin of Adam.

Oh man. That is a classic...HA! The genetic imputation of SIN now? lol The MALE dna is the SIN TRANSMITTER!?

Sometimes I just shake my head and say where in the world do people get this stuff?

 

[&Abel]

Man does not live on instinct. He is a thinking feeling reasoning creature. His will is in bondage to sin because of the nature of his situation of having Adam as his federal head and thus recieving this sinfulness by imputation.

So, Christ does not have the sin of Adam imputed to him because he does not have Adam as his federal head. Sin is imputed throughthe male line and Christ's father is God, so He did not have the sin of Adam. Christ then through the work of his own obedience has defeated sin and the devil and freely chose to take our sins upon himself (he wouldn't have died involuntarily because he wasn't cursed) and by the merits of Christ's ultimate act of righteousnes sinners are given the grace of salvation by the imputed righteousness of Christ which quickens their dead spirits and allows them to trust and love God in that which we call saving faith.

http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/federal-headship

the problem with that is Christ didn't procreate

 

[DD2008]

IS God The Father of the Totally Depraved?

.

Galations 4:1-9
[1] I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave, though he is the owner of all the estate;
[2] but he is under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father.
[3] So with us; when we were children, we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe.
[4] But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
[5] to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
[6] And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[7] So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir.
[8] Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods;
[9] but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?

Saving grace is the taking of the totally depraved man and adopting him as a son. When you are given the grace to know God instead of just being known by Him you are an adopted son made possible by the righteousness of God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ. His Spirit is within the hearts of the adopted sons and makes them who were once unable to desire God to now cry Father! And embrace Him with open arms.

 

[DD2008]

the problem with that is Christ didn't procreate

Christ's imputed righteousness is spiritual.

 

[&Abel]

The bible just tells us that man is created in the image and likeness. The bible is our recognized authority. There is no official teaching on it. Because there is no one that has the authority to officially define the meaning of a verse. Here is one good explaination, however.

"The image of God in man therefore distinguishes us from all other animals on the one hand and shows our family resemblance to our heavenly father on the other. I take it that the words ‘image’ and ‘likeness’ amount to the same thing. They are not referring to different categories but are intended to emphasise & clarify the central idea."

http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=52

I agree that we are no longer the image though we are being transformed into his image from the Lord the Spirit

I honestly don't think Adam was the full image of god(as in a reflection)

I think it depends on the usage of the word

 

[DD2008]

Oh man. That is a classic...HA! The genetic imputation of SIN now? lol The MALE dna is the SIN TRANSMITTER!?

Sometimes I just shake my head and say where in the world do people get this stuff?

Many would say we get it from here.

Romans 5:18-21
18] Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.
[20] Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
[21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[&Abel]

Galations 4:1-9
[1] I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave, though he is the owner of all the estate;
[2] but he is under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father.
[3] So with us; when we were children, we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe.
[4] But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
[5] to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
[6] And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[7] So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir.
[8] Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods;
[9] but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?

Saving grace is the taking of the totally depraved man and adopting him as a son. When you are given the grace to know God instead of just being known by Him you are an adopted son made possible by the righteousness of God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ. His Spirit is within the hearts of the adopted sons and makes them who were once unable to desire God to now cry Father! And embrace Him with open arms.

his spirit is within all men...we choose whether we embrace it or not

 

[student ad x]

The real irony in Calvinism is that even the predestined to salvation are called TOTALLY DEPRAVED. And since there is no solid determination of their or anyone else's salvation other than their own good guessing in their own behalf and even then NO ASSURANCE for them, there is at least the potential that the position is TOTALLY FALSE.

They really should admit that without certainty of salvation, they are still POTENTIALLY technically TOTALLY DEPRAVED and they don't really KNOW if they are saved.

Implicitly trusting that I am reckoned as righteous by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and He having sealed me as His child by adoption with the indwelling Holy Spirit; has given me but a foretaste of the promise to which He is faithful (i.e. raising the righteous to eternal life on the last day). His promise is enough assurance for me.

 

[&Abel]

Many people are born into terrible circumstances on earth. Someone is destined to clean toilets for their entire life.

This does not change God's love for us and his desire that we accept his gift of grace.

Esau went on to have a good life and apparently he was a man of God. He forgave his brother for cheating him and treated him with love.

thats a good point that I'm glad you made

Esau seemed to change into a totally different man

 

[squint]

OK, I've asked you 3 times now a very very simple question, IS God The Father of the totally depraved?

I'm gonna dig really really hard to find a yes or a no somewhere below.

Galations 4:1-9
Saving grace is the taking of the totally depraved man and adopting him as a son.

Well, we do know from scriptures that ALL of Israel are Gods children and we also know that MOST of them were NOT believers.....so have you addressed this problem yet?

Would you like me to guess in your behalf? That the non-adopted CHILDREN are totally depraved CHILDREN OF GOD?

When you are given the grace to know God instead of just being known by Him you are an adopted son made possible by the righteousness of God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ. His Spirit is within the hearts of the adopted sons and makes them who were once unable to desire God to now cry Father! And embrace Him with open arms.

You have to understand I love to see avoidance.

 

[squint]

Many would say we get it from here.

Romans 5:18-21
18] Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.
[20] Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
[21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Many would say the Mr. Calvin or the Reformed position HAS NO SUCH nonsense, so I don't know who you are trying to kid.