Calvinist Robots

[Thekla]

Originally Posted by PETE_

The image of God in man is spiritual. Man is not simply a physical being, but also a moral being with a conscience, intellect, emotion, and will.

Man has a self-consciousness and a self-determination that enables him to make choices
God is a Spirit, the human soul is a spirit. The essential attributes of a spirit are reason, conscience, and will.
Man was created in “original righteousness” also referred to as “knowledge, righteousness, and holiness.” This original righteousness and holiness was lost through the fall but is restored in Christ. Ephesians 4:24 emphasizes that the new self of the believer is “in the likeness of God (and) has been created in righteousness and holiness.” Colossians 3:10 declares that the new self is “being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him,” a reference to Genesis 1:26.

Enns, Paul P.: The Moody Handbook of Theology. Chicago, Ill. : Moody Press, 1997, c1989, S. 305
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That's a good explaination.

yes, but it seems to say that in losing the image, mankind has no will -- how is man then not an animal ?

 

[Thekla]

Eve's flesh was from Adam's flesh.
Her "seed" was not.

I don't understand

 

[A New Dawn]

In Calvinism, no one really knows if they are saved or not except by their own best guess, let alone if anyone else is saved. So making the determinations above are still subject to what you yourself can determine and that without certainty.

And Calvinism also claims that anyone who loves, has hope, does righteousness does not matter one whit if they don't have Jesus painted across their lips. The totally depraved who DO love, have hope and do righteousness are merely doing superflous or needless acts. A random act of needlessness. They will be damned anyway.


One of the most ironic points of Calvinism is that the position itself admits that no one can determine for a certainty that ANYONE is saved, but that THEY have determined, even not KNOWING for a certainty that they are saved, what Divine Sovereignty has determined in matters of salvation.

The real irony in Calvinism is that even the predestined to salvation are called TOTALLY DEPRAVED. And since there is no solid determination of their or anyone else's salvation other than their own good guessing in their own behalf and even then NO ASSURANCE for them, there is at least the potential that the position is TOTALLY FALSE.

They really should admit that without certainty of salvation, they are still POTENTIALLY technically TOTALLY DEPRAVED and they don't really KNOW if they are saved.

Yet they know what the deal for salvation is? Please. Where is the credibility in that?

I'm not seeing why you call it an ironic point. I have never claimed to know the certainty of my position, and I sure don't know the certainty of anyone else's position, BUT I do know that God called me into a relationship with Him at a time in my life when I was far away and not even looking for God. (So much for free choice. (And I am ever so grateful that He stepped in and made me His!)) And He has held tightly to me despite the times I have felt like wandering.

(sing it with me...) Prone to wander, Lord I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love.

That's it in a nutshell. We can love the Lord with all our hearts, even being regenerated, and still feel prone to wander. If someone who knows and loves God is prone to wander, how can someone who has never been introduced to God even possibly come close to making a choice to follow Him? They can't. If they try to on their own, it is with dubious intentions, and will not last precisely because it wasn't initiated from above.

 

[DD2008]

but if the resurrected flesh is not the flesh of Adam, how is this effective ?

Christ is the Son of God. Christ is also the son of Mary.

He received his flesh from his mother. Since sin is imputed in the male line he didn't receive the sin of Adam because his Father is God who is sinless.

He is fully Human (without sin) and fully God.

 

[Thekla]

Christ is the Son of God. Christ is also the son of Mary.

He received his flesh from his mother. Since sin is imputed in the male line he didn't receive the sin of Adam because his Father is God who is sinless.

He is fully Human (without sin) and fully God.

Mary is a descendant of Adam and Eve -- I don't understand you here ...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

yes, but it seems to say that in losing the image, mankind has no will -- how is man then not an animal ?

Ahhh I just have to post this.
While translating Genesis from the Hebrew I noticed YHWH used different forms of "male/female" and "man/woman" in Chapt 6 and 7. Never quite understood the significance of this and this is from a translation I did awhile back. Thoughts?

Genesis 6:18 And I set up covenant of Me with thee, and thou come to the ark, thee and sons of thee and woman of thee and women of sons of thee with thee.
19 And from all of the living from all flesh, two from all thou shall bring to the Ark to preserve alive with thee, male/02145 zakar and female/05347 n@qebah they shall be.

Gene 7:1 And YHWH is saying to Noah come! thou and all of house-hold of thee to the ark, that thou I see righteous in generation, this.
2 From every of the beast the clean thou shall take to seven seven a man/'iysh and its woman/'ishshah of him, and from the beast not clean, he two man/'iysh and its woman/'ishshah of him.

 

[DD2008]

Mary is a descendant of Adam and Eve -- I don't understand you here ...

Right. But she cannot impute sin to her son because she is a woman.

 

[Thekla]

Ahhh I just have to post this.
While translating Genesis from the Hebrew I noticed YHWH used different forms of "male/female" and "man/woman" in Chapt 6 and 7. Never quite understood the significance of this and this is from a translation I did awhile back. Thoughts?

Genesis 6:18 And I set up covenant of Me with thee, and thou come to the ark, thee and sons of thee and woman of thee and women of sons of thee with thee.
19 And from all of the living from all flesh, two from all thee shall bring to the Ark to preserve alive with thee, male/02145 zakar and female/05347 n@qebah they shall be.

Gene 7:1 And YHWH is saying to Noah come! thou and all of house-hold of thee to the ark, that thou I see righteous in generation, this.
2 From every of the beast the clean thou shall take to seven seven a man/'iysh and its woman/'ishshah of him, and from the beast not clean, he two man/'iysh and its woman/'ishshah of him.

its cool - in the "two creation" accounts one has the physical terminology for male and female, and one has the social terminology for male and female ...

 

[&Abel]

Christ is the Son of God. Christ is also the son of Mary.

He received his flesh from his mother. Since sin is imputed in the male line he didn't receive the sin of Adam because his Father is God who is sinless.

He is fully Human (without sin) and fully God.

I don't even know what to say to that but I'm going to be nice and just bow out of this illogical conversation

 

[Thekla]

Right. But she cannot impute sin to her son because she is a woman.

why ?
and why do you say Adam's sin is "imputed to us" when we inherit his mortality, not his sin ?

and if she does not have "imputed sin", then how does Christ restore us - save us from imputed sin ?

 

[chestertonrules]

That's it in a nutshell. We can love the Lord with all our hearts, even being regenerated, and still feel prone to wander. If someone who knows and loves God is prone to wander, how can someone who has never been introduced to God even possibly come close to making a choice to follow Him? They can't. If they try to on their own, it is with dubious intentions, and will not last precisely because it wasn't initiated from above.

Why do you keep distorting the gospel? Read the words of the bible and believe them.

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't understand

Jesus had Adam's flesh because He got it from Eve who got hers from Adam (the rib).
He had his flesh, but not his lineage.
He was "in step", but not "in line" with humanity.
He was human & suffered temptation, but He was not Totaly depraved. That is why He qualified as a "perfect" sacrifice.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why do you keep distorting the gospel? Read the words of the bible and believe them.

Now I know why I unsubscribed

 

[PETE_]

yes, but it seems to say that in losing the image, mankind has no will -- how is man then not an animal ?

we still have a will it is just corrupted from the original state of righteousness

 

[Thekla]

Jesus had Adam's flesh because He got it from Eve who got hers from Adam (the rib).
He had his flesh, but not his lineage.
He was "in step", but not "in line" with humanity.
He was human & suffered temptation, but He was not Totaly depraved. That is why He qualified as a "perfect" sacrifice.

how are we totally depraved ????
if we have no image, we have no will and are just animals
are animals totally depraved ?

anyway, there is no "original sin" in the EO (or the first few centuries) so I'm thinking thats why this discussion is so confusing to me ...

 

[A New Dawn]

Why do you keep distorting the gospel? Read the words of the bible and believe them.

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

You mean I should distort the meanings of the words like you have? I have already posted (twice) Strongs Biblical usage of those words in those verses. You can choose to ignore the, but I would prefer to know and understand what is being said so I can better understand God's Word to us!

 

[&Abel]

Now I know why I unsubscribed

so you don't believe the words of the bible?

 

[Thekla]

we still have a will it is just corrupted from the original state of righteousness

God says creation was good - I assume this includes man in image toward likeness ; your position seems to say that what is good can become ineluctably evil through distortion.

 

[chestertonrules]

You mean I should distort the meanings of the words like you have?

How have I distorted them?

All I did was print scripture.

Feel free to tell me that the words of the bible are wrong. That appears to be your point.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

so you don't believe the words of the bible?

When did I say that

2 Thessalonians 1:10 Whenever He shall be coming to be glorified in His Saints and to be marvelled in all the ones believing, that was believed the testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that . [Zech 14:5/Reve 19]