Calvinist Robots

[A New Dawn]

God knows who will make it, we don't. Not even Paul:

Nobody but God knows who will make it. One doesn't need to know who makes it to believe in predestination. Believing in predestination doesn't give one special powers or make them prophets. It just means they know how to rightly divide the word.

 

[chestertonrules]

Nobody but God knows who will make it. One doesn't need to know who makes it to believe in predestination. Believing in predestination doesn't give one special powers or make them prophets. It just means they know how to rightly divide the word.

Good for you.

 

[A New Dawn]

You must endure to make it until the last day.

P

 

[&Abel]

this is my take on that verse:

god gave the Pharaoh every chance in the world to repent

he saw many signs and wonders and still refused to submit to god

god knew the outcome and created everything knowing that pharaoh would reject him in that moment

so ultimately he did make him with a hardened heart because he knew it would happen based on his implemented design of creation

but it was pharaohs choice to harden his heart apposed to accepting gods spirit

but once again this was ultimately god's will because he created everything knowing that Pharaoh would reject him

12(X)Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from (Y)the living God. 13But (Z)encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the (AA)deceitfulness of sin.
14For we have become partakers of Christ, (AB)if we hold fast the beginning of our (AC)assurance firm until the end,
15while it is said,
"(AD)TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16For who (AE)provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, (AF)did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, (AG)whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear (AH)that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were (AI)disobedient?
19So we see that they were not able to enter because of (AJ)unbelief.







we are predestined based on our choices that god knows in advance

 

[Rajni]

Can someone please put to rest the notion that predestination turns humans into robots?

Well, I could try, but it won't be pretty, LOL!

Scripture says that God is the Potter and we are the clay.
Compared to a robot, which moves around, makes funky noises computes certain things, and actually gets some stuff done, clay just sits there. Robots, on the other hand, at least create an illusion of something akin to autonomy (provided their batteries are charged on a regular basis).

Long story short, the notion that we are robots is too flattering, if Scripture's statement on the issue is any indicator.

.

 

[&Abel]

listen, everytime you reach out to a sinner and try to convert them

thats god reaching out to that sinner...god attempts to reach every man but its up to that man(or woman) to respond

if they don't respond then they were not predestined cause god already knew they wouldn't

its all about the end result

the end result is so good it was worth the loss aparently

but I don't believe god went into the drawing board and decided "well I'm gonna kill all these people cause it'll be fun, and save these ones"

he saw our choices playing out before he created ANYTHING and attempted to salvage every last vessel he could while attaining the perfect result

 

[&Abel]

and when the design was complete he could say

"I hardened his heart" "I made him so I could showcase my wrath"

because he knew thats what would happen and he ultimately decided to create knowing that fact

 

[squint]

Well, I could try, but it won't be pretty, LOL!

Scripture says that God is the Potter and we are the clay.
Compared to a robot, which moves around, makes funky noises computes certain things, and actually gets some stuff done, clay just sits there. Robots, on the other hand, at least create an illusion of something akin to autonomy (provided their batteries are charged on a regular basis).

Long story short, the notion that we are robots is too flattering, if Scripture's statement on the issue is any indicator.

.

I don't do too many special applause posts, but THAT WAS AWESOME!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You must endure to make it until the last day.

Why do we need to keep watchful?

He will come like a thief in the night!

Just don't get caught in the shower

2 Peter 3:10 Shall be arriving yet day of Lord as thief in night, in which the Heavens boomingly shall be passing-away/pareleu-sontai <3928> (5695), elements yet burning shall be being loosed, and Land and the in her works shall be being burned.

Reve 16:15 Behold! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one-watching and keeping the garments of him, that no naked he may be walking-about and they may be observing the indecency of him

 

[Epiphoskei]

Monergism is not compatible with free will. It is merely a rhetorical defense mechanism devised by men embarrassed by their theology.

That's your opinion. But people like Augustine and Aquinas who were free will Monergists disagree with you, and while you are free to disagree with what they say, you are not free to make them into synergists simply because they accept free will.

Why not? Because it conflicts with your dogma?

Because the text says "Justification and life for all men," and it's an example of obvious cherrypicking to seperate justification and life, one into a christian-only gift, and the other as a form of semi-pelagian prevenient grace. You may not give life to all men if you do not give justification to all men, which is heresy.

 

[Thekla]

Just don't get caught in the shower

what about "dew on fleece"
(Psalm 133)

 

[chestertonrules]

this is my take on that verse:

god gave the Pharaoh every chance in the world to repent

he saw many signs and wonders and still refused to submit to god

god knew the outcome and created everything knowing that pharaoh would reject him in that moment

so ultimately he did make him with a hardened heart because he knew it would happen based on his implemented design of creation

but it was pharaohs choice to harden his heart apposed to accepting gods spirit

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God. The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart. Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man. The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will. Before man is life and death, and whichsoever pleases him shall be given to him. Sirach 15:11-17 Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will.

but once again this was ultimately god's will because he created everything knowing that Pharaoh would reject him

12(X)Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from (Y)the living God. 13But (Z)encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the (AA)deceitfulness of sin.
14For we have become partakers of Christ, (AB)if we hold fast the beginning of our (AC)assurance firm until the end,
15while it is said,
"(AD)TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16For who (AE)provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, (AF)did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, (AG)whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear (AH)that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were (AI)disobedient?
19So we see that they were not able to enter because of (AJ)unbelief.

 

[chestertonrules]

That's your opinion. But people like Augustine and Aquinas who were free will Monergists disagree with you, and while you are free to disagree with what they say, you are not free to make them into synergists simply because they accept free will.




Because the text says "Justification and life for all men," and it's an example of obvious cherrypicking to seperate justification and life, one into a christian-only gift, and the other as a form of semi-pelagian prevenient grace. You may not give life to all men if you do not give justification to all men, which is heresy.

It says LEADS TO Justification and life for all men,"

You read it as ASSURES Justification and life for all men,"

 

[&Abel]

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God. The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart. Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man. The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will. Before man is life and death, and whichsoever pleases him shall be given to him. Sirach 15:11-17 Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will.

but once again this was ultimately god's will because he created everything knowing that Pharaoh would reject him

12(X)Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from (Y)the living God. 13But (Z)encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the (AA)deceitfulness of sin.
14For we have become partakers of Christ, (AB)if we hold fast the beginning of our (AC)assurance firm until the end,
15while it is said,
"(AD)TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16For who (AE)provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, (AF)did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, (AG)whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear (AH)that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were (AI)disobedient?
19So we see that they were not able to enter because of (AJ)unbelief.

thats my main problem with calvinism

it gives people an excuse to say " god made me a sinner so its his fault, I'm gonna hate him and sin and thats just how he made me"

and thats rubbish

but if you do fall into that lie god already knew you would and decided to go ahead with creation despite that fact...but its still up to your decisions which are worked into gods design

 

[squint]

Just don't get caught in the shower

2 Peter 3:10 Shall be arriving yet day of Lord as thief in night, in which the Heavens boomingly shall be passing-away/pareleu-sontai <3928> (5695), elements yet burning shall be being loosed, and Land and the in her works shall be being burned.

Reve 16:15 Behold! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one-watching and keeping the garments of him, that no naked he may be walking-about and they may be observing the indecency of him

Or even worse, in BED with another MAN!

Luke 17:34
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Apparently coming in the night though eh?

http://www.rhapsody.com/player?type...ageregion=&guid=&from=&hasrhapx=false&__pcode=

 

[PETE_]

it gives people an excuse to say " god made me a sinner so its his fault, I'm gonna hate him and sin and thats just how he made me"

calvinism in no way denies the responsibility of man

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Or even worse, in BED with another MAN!

Luke 17:34
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Apparently coming in the night though eh?

http://www.rhapsody.com/player?type=track&id=tra.17146442&remote=false&page=&pageregion=&guid=&from=&hasrhapx=false&__pcode=

In that case I will only sleep and shower during the day before the sun goes down......

Exodus 12:29 And is becoming mid/02677 chetsiy of the night and YHWH smote every of firstborn in land of Egypt, from firstborn of Pharaoh, the one sitting on his Throne, unto firstborn of the captive which in house of cistern and every of firstborn of beast.[Matt 25:5/Reve 16:10]

Matt 25:5 Of tarrying yet the Bridegroom they nod all and are slept.
6 Of middle yet of night a cry has occured "behold! the Bridegroom. Be ye coming out! into meeting of Him". [Exodus 12:29/Reve 16:10]

 

[&Abel]

if it was only gods will then you COULD blame god

if we were not responsible for our choices then we would not be sinners, god would be

 

[&Abel]

the very fact that we are judged is based on freewill

if man did not have a freewill he would be free from responsibility

 

[Epiphoskei]

It says LEADS TO Justification and life for all men,"

You read it as ASSURES Justification and life for all men,"

You are the one reading it as assures justification and life for all men. Yours is the argument that says every man is acually alive in Christ according to this passage. I am the one telling you that you can't do that. The text does not say "life for all men," it says "justification and life for all men." Are all men justified? Obviously not. Is every man alive in Christ? Also obviously not. No one is just alive, but not justified.