Calvinist Robots

[Epiphoskei]

You can't have it both ways.

You claim that all men are depraved, but that God saves some of the underserving sinners.

This means he CHOOSES to condemn the rest.

Which He is perfectly just in doing. I'm not having it both ways, I'm only saying that God condemns the rest for their own unbelief. Every man's fate is his own fault.

Hmmmm? You mean if God chooses not to save him, there is nothing he or you can do about it?

"Can't" isn't "won't." God has provided a route he can take, which he, of his own wicked will, won't take.

Uh, no, that would not be the case whatsoever per your own statement.

Please don't blame the man for Gods choosing/choice not to save him, thank you.

Your error arises from trying to symmetrize salvation and condemnation.
People aren't condemned for being not chosen, they're condemned for sinning. Some sinners are saved because God wanted to save them.

I'm not aware that Luther was a Calvinist.

We call it Reformational Theology instead of Calvinism for a reason.

 

[chestertonrules]

Which He is perfectly just in doing. I'm not having it both ways, I'm only saying that God condemns the rest for their own unbelief. Every man's fate is his own fault.quote]


How can a man be at fault for acting in the nature he was given by God?

Did God not create all men?

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

You deny that Calvinistic dogma turns men into robots because it makes you uncomfortable.

You didn't answer my question, either.

Can a man PROGRAMMED for HELL go to HEAVEN?

All men are PROGRAMMED for Hell by their sinful nature. It is only by God's grace that a sinner, like myself, can be reprogrammed for heaven.

Do you deny that God changed you and turned you from a sinner deserving of hell to a saint destined for Heaven?

Or did you change yourself?

 

[chestertonrules]

All men are PROGRAMMED for Hell by their sinful nature. It is only by God's grace that a sinner, like myself, can be reprogrammed for heaven.

Do you deny that God changed you and turned you from a sinner deserving of hell to a saint destined for Heaven?

Or did you change yourself?

God's grace turned my will to his. However, if I don't cooperate with his grace I will not be saved.

It is still possible for me to reject God's will and to reject his grace.

 

[MamaZ]

Which He is perfectly just in doing. I'm not having it both ways, I'm only saying that God condemns the rest for their own unbelief. Every man's fate is his own fault.quote]


How can a man be at fault for acting in the nature he was given by God?

Did God not create all men?

Adam and Eve procreated as God set it up from the beginning. That is why all men are sinners because the very first of the Human race sinned. Sin begets sin... Therefore all men are born to die. It is the eternal life that is given by Gods Grace and through His will and choosing. For that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Which all of the born into Christ are. But one must be born into Christ through the Spirit of God and this is of Gods choosing and not mens works thoughts or actions..It is pure grace

 

[Epiphoskei]

Something you're doing is messing up your quotes.

Written by Augustine in 427 AD, as part of his retractations

And? Monergism and Free Will are compatable. Just never the Pelagian's idea of free will.

Only those who finishe the process are saved. Being reconciled is a state. It can change. If I sin against you, we can reconcile. If I do it again, we will no longer be reconciled

Which, as I said, is irrelevant to this discussion. It remains the fact that reconciliation is salvation, so contrary your claims, every human is not reconciled by the death of Christ. If they were, it would be possible to be saved merely by living a sinful life, without the need for specific salvation from original sin, which is the Pelagian heresy.

It means we have been made alive to God.

Do you deny that Jesus changed our relationship to God?

How would you describe this change? Paul describes it as being made alive. Like Adam, we now have the grace to follow. Adam rejected this grace. We also can reject it or accept it thanks to the blood of Jesus.

It does not and it can not mean we have been made alive unless it also means we have been justified. "Justication and life" are either really enacted for all men, or only for believers. If all men are alive, all men are justified. You can't pick the life part out and give it to everyone, keeping the justification for Christians only.

Jesus reconciled believers to the father. He did not change the relationship between men and God unless they believe.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God's grace turned my will to his. However, if I don't cooperate with his grace I will not be saved.

It is still possible for me to reject God's will and to reject his grace.

Yes, I have seen it here on CF with Christians deconverting to atheism, judaism, islam etc......

 

[Epiphoskei]

How can a man be at fault for acting in the nature he was given by God?

Did God not create all men?

Better question. How can man be excused for behaving according to his nature? What will his excuse be? "I made me do it!"

 

[chestertonrules]

And? Monergism and Free Will are compatable. Just never the Pelagian's idea of free will.

Monergism is not compatible with free will. It is merely a rhetorical defense mechanism devised by men embarrassed by their theology.

Which, as I said, is irrelevant to this discussion. It remains the fact that reconciliation is salvation, so contrary your claims, every human is not reconciled by the death of Christ. If they were, it would be possible to be saved merely by living a sinful life, without the need for specific salvation from original sin, which is the Pelagian heresy.

Reconciliation is a temporary state. Salvation is permanent.

It does not and it can not mean we have been made alive unless it also means we have been justified. "Justication and life" are either really enacted for all men, or only for believers. .

Why not? Because it conflicts with your dogma?

Jesus made it possible for all men to accept and follow God's will.

Not all men will do this:

James 2
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Jesus reconciled believers to the father. He did not change the relationship between men and God unless they believe.[/

What is confusing you about the words ALL MEN?

Why do you reject the crystal clear words of the bible?

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
  Rom 11:32

• My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
  1 John 2:1-2

• The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
  John 1:29

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

God's grace turned my will to his. However, if I don't cooperate with his grace I will not be saved.

It is still possible for me to reject God's will and to reject his grace.

If Christ said that no man could pluck you from His Father's hand, then what makes you think that you can do what Christ said no man could do?

Is your ability to reject God's grace stronger than God's ability to keep you in his grace?

Are you currently in God's posession? Does the Father have you in His hand? Or are you still waiting for him to pick you up?

 

[chestertonrules]

If Christ said that no man could pluck you from His Father's hand, then what makes you think that you can do what Christ said no man could do?

No man can pluck me from his hand, but I can walk away by rejecting his gift of grace.

Is your ability to reject God's grace stronger than God's ability to keep you in his grace?

We are clearly warned about the possiblity of falling away.

Let those who think they are standing, BEWARE, lest they fall:

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".[/FONT]

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:29 "How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?"

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".
​

 

[squint]

Which He is perfectly just in doing. I'm not having it both ways, I'm only saying that God condemns the rest for their own unbelief. Every man's fate is his own fault.

How you justify God who made mankind only to subsequently burn them alive forever in conscious torment for choosing not to save them is beyond me. I think that is a justification of God of your own making personally. That doesn't mean there aren't other views.

And blaming men for Gods non choice is just as absurd. The men didn't have any say so whatsoever so where is the blame for a no say?

"Can't" isn't "won't." God has provided a route he can take, which he, of his own wicked will, won't take.

You are trying to play both ends against the middle. IF God chooses not to save them IT DOESN'T MATTER what they do. Calvinism doesn't purport to KNOW who is saved and who isn't so there isn't really any way to even know other than a wild guess or two that God MAY have chosen YOU.

Your error arises from trying to symmetrize salvation and condemnation.

I have no idea what you are trying to put in my mouth with that one. IF God choses not to save someone the MAN had exactly zero to do with Gods choice.

People aren't condemned for being not chosen,

Of course they are. The did not have any 'choice' in the matter whatsoever of GODS CHOICE nor could they 'make' God choose them.

they're condemned for sinning. Some sinners are saved because God wanted to save them.

The methodology of not being chosen or involved in making the choice is NOT upon the man. It is quite pointless to blame the man for not saving himself when he had nothing to do with the event whatsoever.

We call it Reformational Theology instead of Calvinism for a reason.

I'd call it making a very poor effort to let God off the hook for not making an affirmative choice and just blaming the man for Gods NON choice which he had nothing to do with.

enjoy!

squint

 

[MamaZ]

How can you walk away from Christ if He lives within you by His Spirit? You cannot just walk off and pretend He is not real nor will He allow you to if you are truly saved for He will loose not one of His own.

 

[squint]

No man can pluck me from his hand, but I can walk away by rejecting his gift of grace.

Well, you DA MAN obviously (could) pluck yourself from Gods Hand couldn't YOU?....No man can pluck ME but I'm a MAN who can pluck. Naw, there's no logical fallacy there under that piece O' corn.

pluck, pluck, pla gawk!

Where's mah chikin pic?

 

[Thekla]

Adam was not created with the capacity for ongoing relationship with God

 

[chestertonrules]

How can you walk away from Christ if He lives within you by His Spirit? You cannot just walk off and pretend He is not real nor will He allow you to if you are truly saved for He will loose not one of His own.

Do you deny that these are true?

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:29 "How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?"

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How can you walk away from Christ if He lives within you by His Spirit? You cannot just walk off and pretend He is not real nor will He allow you to if you are truly saved for He will loose not one of His own.

Well I have heard if you walk away from the RCC you walk away from JESUS

 

[squint]

Better question. How can man be excused for behaving according to his nature? What will his excuse be? "I made me do it!"

In reformed it would obviously only be that God didn't choose him and that apart from that it wouldn't matter what he did.

 

[DD2008]

No man can pluck me from his hand, but I can walk away by rejecting his gift of grace.

So you are powerful enough to twart the will of God?

An Elect is chosen by God and given irresistible grace that allows Him to persevere.

When God saves someone He actually saves them he doesn't leave HIs work incomplete.

The falling away that is talked about is a warning to check yourself constantly because God knows who the elect are. However people don't so if you don't find yourself living for God you might be a reprobate.

God saves sinners and takes them to heaven because of His good will alone.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
(Heb 13:5)