Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
People can't disagree all the time. Reflection is a private matter and goes through many instances before it shines on conviction. Every man thinks differently. The Spirit will bring us to truth in His good time.
How does the calvanist position reek in judgment to our fellow man? For we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves for we as a people do not know whom God has chosen nor when or where He will call them. It is the word of God where predestination is seen. We also see that it is God who makes covenants with people. All due to Adams sin and bringing death and seperation between man and God. How is God obligated to save any man?When the Calvinist position reeks in judgment to our fellow mankind, and the command of scripture is the opposite, friction rightfully remains.
How does the calvanist position reek in judgment to our fellow man?
For we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves
for we as a people do not know whom God has chosen nor when or where He will call them. It is the word of God where predestination is seen.
We also see that it is God who makes covenants with people. All due to Adams sin and bringing death and seperation between man and God. How is God obligated to save any man?
When the Calvinist position reeks in judgment to our fellow mankind, and the command of scripture is the opposite, friction rightfully remains.
By [robotically] deeming those we are commanded to LOVE totally depraved.
(not the first time I've heard that from a Calvinist here i.e. 'beloved57')
sure...
enjoy!
squint
[/size]
Ah, I see the problem now. You are thinking that the theological term "total depravity" means the same thing as it would mean in ordinary conversation. It doesn't.
We do speak of "total depravity" in this kind of discussion because that is the traditional term used by Predestinarians, and it is assumed that those reacting against it would at least be familiiar with it, just as debates with Catholics on the "Immacualte Conception," for example, are predicated on the participants knowing whose conception we are talking about and, also, that we are not speaking of the Virgin Birth.
So...this seems to account for the difficulty here. Misunderstanding the term.
If we were all speaking of total depravity as it applies to the subject of the thread, I'm sure there'd be no assuming, wrongly, that the term is an insult, excludes any possibility of love, means that men are savages and completely given to animalistic behavior, or anything like that.
'beloved57' is a caricature of a Calvinist
The calvinist five point position is the best summary of what scripture says as a whole.
Telling the truth is not judging.
We're all going to die because we're a fallen species of totally depraved sinners.
Is that judgemental?
No it's simply revealed truth that has been shown to us by God through the scriptures.
Christ came to save sinners. If humanity was not totally depraved he wouldn't have had to come and save them because they would have been able to choose to save themselves as the Pelagians argued.
So since man is dead in sin Christ came and atoned for sin so that by his righteousness the Elect are redeemed and go to be with him in heaven.
Please spare me the 'this sin' is better than 'that sin.'
And for the record I do accept that sin and the workers of iniquity ARE totally depraved. I do not however believe they are my fellow, mankind.
You don't have to speak down to me with that kind of setup Albion. Make yer point. And for the record I do not have the proper concept of the "immacualte conception."
Sure.
Is this the sum of your response?
We call them nothing. We speak as the scriptures teach us that man is born Spiritually dead and seperated from God. That in Receiving Christ He makes one alive in Him. We also are taught through scripture that God does the calling and the choosing of those according to His will in those whom He has predestined. Spiritual truth does not need the acceptance of Human Logic to be truth.By [robotically] deeming those we are commanded to LOVE totally depraved.
Some even go so far as to paint believers with that brush as well.
Even those whom have been predestined were totally depraved.For it was Adam's sin that did this. It all started out good until the fall of mankind.
Indeed. Hello. If I love my wife and call her a dirty harlot [totally depraved] would that be love?
If you love your wife why indeed would you call her a dirty harlot? So to you totally depraved means dirty harlot? Wow quite a statment.
I have no issues with predestination. I do have issues with the Calvin determination. They are not the same.
And are you saying you pretend to love all of your neighbors because you don't know who the elect are???
(not the first time I've heard that from a Calvinist here i.e. 'beloved57')
We are to love even our enemies.. What is so hard about that? We do not know whom God has called and Who God has not called. We do not know the events of anyones life. Do you?
False dilema. There are abundant legitimate alternative answers.
Name them please.
What is and remains strange within 'christianity' general is that we can look at many of the commands and admonishments, and then look at the conclusions of some groups, the one in question here for example, and find direct opposites of simple commands.
You shall love your neighbors as yourself, and you shall measure others as you would be measured, and you shall treat others as you would be treated...
SO CALL THEM TOTALLY DEPRAVED...
sure...
enjoy!
squint
Uh, no, it is merely 'Calvins reflections.' I do not bow to other peoples reflections unless I can find the truth in them. Calvins TULIP is NOT a PERFECT REFLECTION I can assure myself.
DD2008 said:Christ came to save sinners. If humanity was not totally depraved he wouldn't have had to come and save them because they would have been able to choose to save themselves as the Pelagians argued. So since man is dead in sin Christ came and atoned for sin so that by his righteousness the Elect are redeemed and go to be with him in heaven.
Well, I realize that I could have launched into a carefully-worded explanation of what Total Depravity is and is not. That, I thought, would risk you thinking that I was talking down to you. I assumed that if you are interested, having been given the necessary heads-up, you'd take a few moments and check into it yourself.
On the other hand, if merely identifying the problem for you is received by you as a put-down, I might as well have given the explanantion in the first place, huh?
When it is said that one is Totally Depraved it means only that he is a sinner (no, no one is saying that this sin is better than that sin LOL). The natural state of us all at birth is--thanks to being children of Adam and Eve--estranged from God by sin.
Fortunately, God has provided a means by which those who come to him are enabled to do that. Christ died for our sins, etc. But at natural birth we have yet to be reborn. We are, therefore, "totally depraved." We are at odds with God who knows no sin, cannot abide sin, is perfect. Salvation means that we can overcome that, but we start off needing a Savior. You know all of this, but the point is that the term refers to our estrangement from God because we are in sin. (The rest of the Calvinist TULIP or "Five Points" explain, from Scripture, what follows from this starting place in our spiritual lives.)
If, therefore, we want to discuss depravity in a theological sense, we do not mix into it any notions of our actions being bestial or chaotic or anyting else along those lines.
That immigrant from another part of the world who lives next door, for instance, may well be the nicest person on the block, always being helpful and kind. But in a theological sense, and assuming he is a non-believer, he is not yet part of the family of God, not born again. His works, therefore, are not God-pleasing but rather what theologians of various denominations call works of supererrogation, i.e. superfluous for being done by one who has not been saved in Christ by faith. Of course, that applies to any of us who have yet to receive the Lord.
So God in all His sovereignty has given up His sovereign power over man by giving man the power to believe or change on their own behalf and come to Christ on their own free will when men in their natural state cannot understand the things of God?
If that is your conclusion, then it is. The fact remains, though, that Calvin's points are not mere musings, as his opponents sometimes say, but are all backed by scripture.
The "rub" is, of course, that people interpret that scripture in different ways, but that is no reason for casting insults at others here or feeling that any disagreement over interpretation is an insult.
We call them nothing. We speak as the scriptures teach us that man is born Spiritually dead and seperated from God. That in Receiving Christ He makes one alive in Him. We also are taught through scripture that God does the calling and the choosing of those according to His will in those whom He has predestined. Spiritual truth does not need the acceptance of Human Logic to be truth.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?