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Not as happy as He is that I choose Him.cygnusx1 said:So your quite happy and thankful that God Chose YOU!
@@Paul@@ said:Reminds me of the rock star who sent a card to his Mother on his birthday , congratulating her for having him.Not as happy as He is that I choose Him.
To buy a mask.It was HalloweenI think this fits here too, given the line of questioning being used:A guy left home running:.................. he ran for a while and took a left..............after a while, he look another left.............then he look a left and headed back home only to find some men in masks waiting for him....
Why did he leave home?
Really? It reminds me of Luke 15:7cygnusx1 said:Reminds me of the rock star who sent a card to his Mother on his birthday , congratulating her for having him.
Good Day, BTBT said:Hello Bill, welcome to the in-house Baptist discussion on Calvinism
Now over the course of the past few months, whenever we have bumped into each other (usually on this topic for some strange reason, eh?) I have learned to respect your method of explanation. It is always done in a careful manner with ( I believe) the best intentions at heart.
I am not at all offended, for I do not think that discussions around Scripture to be offensivie. I think that disscussion such as these are most profitable to the Body of believers. I gave a exergetical understanding of part of this chapter, which by no means neglects the othere verses of this chapter IMO.So be not offended when I tell you that your understanding of this chapter is wrong. You can not understand John 8 by beginning at the 34th verse. You must start at the beginning where the self-righteous were attempting to get Jesus' blessing in stoning a woman. Which (we know the story) they did not get. Some of the important verses that you've missed (and those who use this passage in general) are such as
BT, there is much here that needs to be disscused at to the understanding of the verses you pull from this chapter. If you find it to be help full I will exergete this whole chapter if you like provided you do the same, there are questions raised by the verses you have quoted, I summit to you that those questions are answered with in the chapter in some of the verses I refered to and extending to the end of the chapter.John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
So are the dead following him or have they been regenerated, and where is this evidence of regeneration?
John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Now this is of course something he is saying to the Pharisees. And with our understanding of who he was it is a startling revelation, that the religious leaders of Judaism don't know the father... however I digress.
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Who cannot come? Me and You? No, the Pharisees. This isn't about us.. let me skip ahead
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Ok, who said? Jesus said. Said what? If you believe not. Then what? ye shall die.
So what is that which will cause you to die in sins? If you believe not. Now if you will attempt to tell me that Jesus did not know what He was talking about (which I don't for one second think you would) we have bigger things to discuss. Let us continue...
John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Ok as who spoke? As Jesus spoke. What happened? Many believed.
So what causes belief? The WORD causes belief. Do you see anything about regeneration or total inability to believe or anything like that here? No.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Who spoke? Jesus. To whom? The Jews which believed. By what did they believe, was it regeneration or election? No it was by His WORD... not words do you notice.... again where is the inability, where is the regeneration? It simply isn't there.
John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Now this is important ok? You see the problem was that they thought they were righteous because they were the seed of Abraham. They did not see that they were in fact sinners (this is a common problem that we have in the world today... nobody thinks they are sinners). They didn't understand the scriptures. So now Jesus proceeds to teach them that they are in bondage to sin and don't have a free ride simply because they are the sons of Abraham.
My friend. Your understand is wrong. I'm sorry but I hope that you can be teachable enough to understand that this does not mean what you and SP thought it did.
So I ask again. Will someone show me in the Scriptures:
and
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Good day, Paul@@Paul@@ said:OK, now that we know you're a Baptist....For the above to be true God must then ELECT people for the opposite??
Do you think it's "possible" that God could "elect" someone knowing that they will "choose" Him at some point in their life - based on creation being a witness to the fact that there is a God?
.......plus the fact that your totally taking Romans 9 out of context. Romans 9 is about Israel's PAST and WHY God choose them and HOW he built their nation... Leaving Romans 9 in context, "Sovereign grace" would be how He called the Apostle Paul AND "hardening" would then be what happened to the nation (because He FOREKNEW they would reject Him anyway) - It's all part of the plan; "All Israel will be saved".
God choose to build a nation by calling out one man to "bless the entire world". However, God could have called out every single person on the planet and said "leave your land", but He didn't... I suppose He choose to call out one man so that He can harden the others?2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance............God wishes everyone to come to repentance, which is why He is so patient.
G3114
makrothumeō
mak-roth-oo-meh'-o
From the same as G3116; to be long spirited, that is, (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient: - bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.
The only proof of any "elect" i can see are those who God foreknew would actually repent....
Reminds me of:BT said:Really? It reminds me of Luke 15:7
Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Listen guys, I'm not just up on the high-horse here. If this concept of regeneration prior to and necessary for salvation, to the elect only is such an obvious concept, then answer my question. I mean we are Baptists, the Bible is our sole authority (it is the First Baptist distinctive). If this whole thing is so obvious and clear in Scripture (as I have repeatedly heard) then show me from Scripture. That's all I'm asking for.
oh i'll leave that alone.bleechers said:When one hits a baseball, one darts to first base, then on to second and so on... until one starts back towards home where the catcher and umpire both sport masks...
There is only one problem. Having played baseball most of my life, I can assure you by the time the runner gets around third, the catcher and the ump will have removed their masks.
Question: did he choose to go back or did he go back because of his nature?*
*that's a joke.
8)
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Faith is pleasing to God:
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
You totally lost me!! I have no idea of how that ties into electing people to fail.BBAS 64 said:Good day, Paul
It seems that your use of 2 Peter neglects the nature of passage as a whole:
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
**Remember this is written to Belivers**
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
* believers- beloved,YE
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
*Un regenerate man
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
* Believers - Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 rebuffed
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
*Reward for Believers
For His Glory Alone!
Bill
Do you think your father would get more joy through having to ask you to say "I Love you dad" OR would he rather you just say it on your own?cygnusx1 said:Reminds me of the rock star who sent a card to his Mother on his birthday , congratulating her for having him.
To buy a mask.It was Halloween
Good Day, Paul@@Paul@@ said:You totally lost me!! I have no idea of how that ties into electing people to fail.
Rom 2:28-29 KJV.........Being a literal jew is not enough,,, A jew must come to repentance to be counted for the promise.
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
oh i see, so you think "us-ward" is a reference to believers? i.e. God has extended His longsuffering only to "believers"....BBAS 64 said:Good Day, Paul
You Posted this:
"
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance............God wishes everyone to come to repentance, which is why He is so patient."
G3114
makrothumeō
mak-roth-oo-meh'-o
From the same as G3116; to be long spirited, that is, (objectively) forbearing or (subjectively) patient: - bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.
You used verse 9 to say that God wishes every one .... as to why he is so patient. Which is not what that passage says, it is to us-ward.
2Pe 3:9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,
Peace to u,
Bill
Hello again Bill!BBAS 64 said:BT, You seem to assert that the "Jews which believed" were some how True belivers, tell me how? In a matter of 6 vereses they go from belivers to killers "why"? It is allways strange to me when any one questions the freedom of man and the lack there of people get very angry.
Peace to u,
Bill
This I'll leave alone for right now but we'll come back to it..Street Preacher said:Reminds me of:
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Now, finally we're coming to the meat and potatoes! Finally! Finally! Finally!Here's a couple to think about:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
We'll get to these next! I'm excited now!Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Faith is pleasing to God:
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
If the Gospel is not preached from this point of view, it becomes a bandaid Gospel, only there to make someone feel better. If we see God as the source of everything (including our faith) we come to Him in worship, giving glory. Why pray for someone to accept Christ if it's up to them?
SP
Nice BT,BT said:Now, finally we're coming to the meat and potatoes! Finally! Finally! Finally!
Let's talk about Eph 2:8. It is one of THE most misused verses in the Bible (in my limited experience).
So ok here we go. My friend I think I understand what you are saying here, or how you're reading it. Let us go all the way back to elementary school english class and examine the verse k.
Now I'll post some questions and you give the answers, hopefully we can get this straightened out k.
First, the verse...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Now what is the subject of the statement? What are we talking about? Because we're hinged here on the part of the statement that says "it is the gift of God." Right? So now answer the question and we'll determine what "the gift of God is".
You have three options...
A) Grace
B) saved
C) Faith
So what is the subject? Answer that and we'll move on.
Just answer the question. You're dodging.Street Preacher said:Nice BT,I've seen it before. We have to ask what is the context in which Paul is writting, salvation as a competed task. (ex. For by grace are ye saved...or For by grace you have been saved...) Grace through faith as a gift of God brother, it's the only way. You would say faith, am I right? But isn't faith pleasing to God? How can one please God while in the flesh without Christ? They can't.
What is the source of salvation?
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
I answered the question, B, did you read my answer? I've seen the quesiton before, which book did you get it out of?BT said:Just answer the question. You're dodging.
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