Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

[CCWoody]

But, when she starts in with the tenents of Calvinism....my eyes glaze over.

Yeah, I like it when my wife talks dirty to me as well.

Remember...you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....assuming that you're into flies in a big way.

Actually you can catch the most with a dead possum.

 

[Gwaihir]

Well...uh...I'm beginning to understand the question at least. The answer must be ....."because of Calvinists"

 

[Catherineanne]

In your Bruce Almighty theology why pray for someone's salvation, for a wayward son or daughter, or that your boss would treat you with kindness ??? If God has to "go with" your choices, why ask Him to pre-empt the free will of others ... or even influence their freedom!

I wouldn't pray for any of those things. I try to only ever pray 'Thy will be done' for anyone and anything.

Not easy, but I try. This is because I do not believe in trying to make God do what I want. That is rather the wrong way round, and verges on attempted magic. Pagans try to manipulate their environment. Christians trust in God, and his goodness.

Other than that, I use the Kyrie. That one works for pretty well any situation you could choose to mention.

I am intrigued by your having to ridicule my point of view. Clearly you must feel very threatened by it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Well...uh...I'm beginning to understand the question at least. The answer must be ....."because of Calvinists"

Works for me. There are some diamonds to be found, but an awful lot of hardcore to search through to do it.

Life is just toooo short.

 

[Catherineanne]

Weren't you the one that said you find what you seek?

Has anyone ever told you how attractive you are when you get angry?

No?

I'm not surprised.

What I actually said was, you only find what you look for, you only look for what you know.

Peace be with you.

 

[MrsGwaihir]

Actually we are fortunate to have each other, and we never discuss religion during dinnner. We have both learned alot about each other and each others beliefs. She will probably always be Protestant and I will always be Catholic, but we can both operate within the culture of each other's faith without a problem.


There is no need for we understand each other well, the eye glaze is a case of...'I understand what your belief system is but I can't buy into it'. Especially Double Predestination (People created by God expressly for Hell).

Actually in the last 9 years we have had lots of discussions about Calvinism and Catholicism, almost to the point of saturation. I know what she believes, she knows what I believe and even though there is no agreement on religion, there is agreement on what is important in our lives....namely Jesus Christ. When we first dated, she drew up our statements of faith to compare them and found there was basically no difference. If it were between the two of us there would be no strife between Baptists and Catholics. I will not let anything worldly come between she and I and the love that I bear her.

Good Morning, Everyone. I am MrsGwaihir. I wanted to ask a question based on some things I have read here.

Are you folks indicating by some of your remarks, that a person cannot be a Christian and be Catholic?

Please help me understand. Thanks!

 

[nill]

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I don't give a tinker's cuss what you believe
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Then why are you in the "Ask a Calvinist" forum? It's not called "Attack a Calvinist." Are you insistent that you've only seen anger from us and maybe a little hint of love here and there?

There's a Calvinist here, whose name I won't mention--but I admire him... a lot. I seriously do, and I wouldn't want him to get all embarrassed by telling him this, but I have not seen anything hateful from him. Ever. All his posts that I've seen which deal with venomous posts (truly venomous--no joke) are patient, graceful, and kind. When others are cordial, he's cordial all the more!

Do people recognize this? Do you recognize this? Why is there not a "Why is Anglicanism so unpopular on CF?" thread, based on the actions of its adherents? Have you come out directly and said you dislike Calvinists for Calvinism? I've not seen that, but I hope you haven't.

Clear up this misconception now: arrogance and spite and hatred are not traits inherent to the doctrines of grace. They are to people, unfortunately, but they are not tagged along with this faith, nor do I believe them to be more prone to it, given that the person who believes in the doctrines of grace really understands what he says he believes and so submits even his "free" will to God's authority completely.


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intolerance, not just of unbelievers, but also of brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Tolerance--no, I know tolerance... and though it is a virtue probably everyone, including yourself, needs to work on, it is very different from unacceptance. You know we can't accept the opposing viewpoints (something so simple as, say, monergistic regeneration and synergistic regeneration), but when it comes to our brethren (and sistren) in Christ, we tolerate what you believe. But you should also understand, at least from this Calvinist's perspective, that any attempt at changing another's viewpoint is done solely from love--or ought to be! I fail at that--I grow angry or frustrated, but I do those wrongly. I must be doing this out of love. But you know why I do it at all? Because the doctrines of grace are the simple gospel, and I tell you that I really can't understand why people would not accept them. It's really a beautiful plan of redemption God has revealed to us, but you know that I view man having autonomous "free will" cheapens that gospel. That's for another topic, though.

Just know that tolerance is something entirely different from acceptance. But know also that when we persist in sharing our viewpoint with you, it's not because we hate you and think you're unsaved, but we do wish (I do, anyway!) that you would see how magnificently God has chosen to redeem us. (This is not a fantasy we've created, either, of course--we believe, too, that it's entirely what the Bible teaches.)

I need to get to class. I hope you're having a good day.

 

[Imblessed]

This is your interpretation. You are mistaken.

And incidentally, it is also projection. The dislike is yours, not mine. You dislike what I believe. I don't give a tinker's cuss what you believe, as long as you allow me space to be who I am.

So, I will answer the thread question. The reason much of Calvinism (and I am sure not all of it) is so ugly to many of us, is because of its intolerance, not just of unbelievers, but also of brothers and sisters in Christ. This appears to be born out of immense insecurity, which is shorn up with thoughts of other people's - even other Christians' - damnation. What is that about?

This intolerance is anathema to me, and probably to many Calvinists too. (Those whose faith is rather more robust, I suspect.) And those Calvinists I happily recognise as my brothers and sisters in faith.

Look, Catherine, I don't dislike your view. I'm one of those "moderate" calvinists who is rather accepting of the 'arminian' view, as long as it doesn't lead to open theism or universal atonement.

when a person comes on here, asks a question like "why do people dislike calvinists" and a non-calvinist comes in and says it's because we are intolerant and mean, what do you expect us to do??? Of course it's going to get our hackles up!

Why don't you start a thread, "why do people hate angelicans?" and we will go in there and start saying how "you angelicans" are closeminded and disagreeable. What do you think will happen? Do you think the angelicans will be nice? Or do you think they will come forward and defend themselves?

Please, for the sake of this thread, step back and try to see this, not form a calvinist view, but from a "human" view. It's not "calvinism" that's causing this angryness, it's a hurt sense of pride. Unfortunately, everyone is all to susceptible.

I understand you are feeling cornered, because there's one of you and a lot of us. I'm sorry for that. Here, have another


In Christ
(we both are)
windi

 

[Imblessed]

Good Morning, Everyone. I am MrsGwaihir. I wanted to ask a question based on some things I have read here.

Are you folks indicating by some of your remarks, that a person cannot be a Christian and be Catholic?

Please help me understand. Thanks!

I thought Gwaihirs post was lovely. And showed a lot of love and respect for you.


You are getting into "reformed" territory here.....there are many on this board who do not feel that a catholic who follows catholicism the way that the RCC would have you do it, would be a christian.

However, NO ONE here says that one cannot be a catholic and a christian. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say......I don't want to start anything here, just wanting you to understand the general feeling of reformists.


There are many differences between the Catholic and the Reformed. Maybe not so many between other 'protestant' faiths.

 

[frumanchu]

MOD HAT ON

Please be reminded that the Ask a Calvinist forum is specifically for non-Calvinists to ask questions for Calvinists to answer. This is not a place for non-Calvinists to debate Calvinism.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[MrsGwaihir]

I thought Gwaihirs post was lovely. And showed a lot of love and respect for you.


You are getting into "reformed" territory here.....there are many on this board who do not feel that a catholic who follows catholicism the way that the RCC would have you do it, would be a christian.

However, NO ONE here says that one cannot be a catholic and a christian. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say......I don't want to start anything here, just wanting you to understand the general feeling of reformists.


There are many differences between the Catholic and the Reformed. Maybe not so many between other 'protestant' faiths.

Thank you for that clarification. I know that my husband and his family have a real heart for the Lord and desire to serve Him and do seek His will for their lives. I have also, personally witnessed their fruit. I always remember that by their fruit you will know them.

 

[Dolly]

I'm new here & I'm really embarrassed to have to write this. I'm really disappointed that two people came into this forum clearly to pick fights and then self-righteously stomped off when they ruffled feathers! One of the people sounded like a schoolyard bully itching for a fight (although claimed not to want to start one). The other person seemed more interested in projecting anger than providing any substantial input. Whatsmore, genuine responses from the Calvinists were rebuffed with snide retorts.

I wonder if these people would have behaved this way if they were talking to a Calvinist face to face? There is something "anonymous" about the Internet that makes us feel safe to put our worst foot forward.

All I can say is if you want to express an opinion, do it but remember that although you feel anonymous, there are people reading your posts. Please don't be insulant or pick fights perhaps pretending you're just another anonymous person somewhere out there in cyberspace.

Your lovable Dolly

 

[PuritanLady]

Ditto...to Iamblessed

 

[Catherineanne]

we do wish (I do, anyway!) that you would see how magnificently God has chosen to redeem us.

Why do you suppose that for me, a fellow Christian, that this would be something new for me to see? You speak as if I do not know God, and that is not acceptable. I absolutely, 100% accept your redemption, and thank God for it.

 

[nill]

But Catherineanne, I did not mean that at all. What I did mean was the part you seem to have missed.


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we do wish (I do, anyway!) that you would see how magnificently God has chosen to redeem us.
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You wrote earlier that our common ground is on God's love for us, His redemption of us, Jesus' death for the ungodly, etc. I agree! No contention! But you see, there is a slight rift between how you took what I wrote and what I meant by it. I certainly did not mean that you were not saved. No, not at all, and if you find Calvinists who do certainly intimate that, I daresay they are in the wrong. Calvinists here, as far as I can see, do not hold that position. There may be a few--I do not know. But if you really do see only "what you read here," as you wrote, then the only problem is a matter of simple misunderstanding. If you are holding preconceived notions against Calvinists you have encountered in the past, then that might be the problem. Whatever the case, I stand by what I meant, and that is this:

Yes, we both agree that God has saved us. The means by which He has done this, I believe, affect our view of Him. Those who ascribe to the doctrines of grace, which, of coure, we believe are revealed in God's Word, understand God's majesty to be so much more bright in seeing how He operates within us. For instance, is it anything so special for a 10-year veteran gymnast to win a gold medal as compared to, say, a paraplegic to win a gold medal? As simple as an example as this may be, I would relate it to the way you might view the gospel and the way I might view the gospel--in one, the man is spiritually alive and conscious and chooses salvation of his own free will; in the other, the man is spiritually dead, made alive by God, and brought to salvation where the man otherwise never would have come. That is a simple example and would merit more threads in the "Ask a Calvinist" forum for better and more complete answers, which I'm sure many of us would gladly give you, provided, of course, you ask with sincerity.

That's all, Catherineanne. No one's doubting your salvation, and you need not feel this way.

Class again... choir this time. Laaaa laa laa laaa laaaaaaa. Sing with me!

 

[rnmomof7]

Actually we are fortunate to have each other, and we never discuss religion during dinnner. We have both learned alot about each other and each others beliefs. She will probably always be Protestant and I will always be Catholic, but we can both operate within the culture of each other's faith without a problem.


There is no need for we understand each other well, the eye glaze is a case of...'I understand what your belief system is but I can't buy into it'. Especially Double Predestination (People created by God expressly for Hell).



Actually in the last 9 years we have had lots of discussions about Calvinism and Catholicism, almost to the point of saturation. I know what she believes, she knows what I believe and even though there is no agreement on religion, there is agreement on what is important in our lives....namely Jesus Christ. When we first dated, she drew up our statements of faith to compare them and found there was basically no difference. If it were between the two of us there would be no strife between Baptists and Catholics. I will not let anything worldly come between she and I and the love that I bear her.

I have a Catholic husband and we have a similar rule.

We do not discuss doctrine much.

 

[Gwaihir]

I am new to the Christian Forum. I will go back and re-read the rules. I thought this thread was asking for the opinion of non-calvinists. When I am in the OBOB thread, we see alot of non-catholic opinion. But, I can see that I was wrong. I truly was interested in giving my honest opinion without starting a fight....silly me...when do people ever talk about religion and faith without a fight. If I have a chip on my shoulder, you may be sure that I developed it the help of another "Christian". So...times awasting and I'm sure I have some other place to be.

 

[rnmomof7]

I would like to make a non official post here.

The purpose of Ask a Calvinist is so people that have questions have somewhere to ask them.

This forum is not for debate BUT it is not for sarcasm or attacking others either.

There was a time I was not a Calvinist . I strongly debated the doctrine and to say I was met with rudeness would be an understatement .

Now I am friends with most of the folks that were harsh to me.
I now understand the defensive posture that many Calvinists take.

BUT Please be a resource here on Ask a Calvinist and take the debate to one of the other forums. Teach do not terrorize here.


To our non Calvinist visitors thanks for asking about our faith . If you think we are a way off base please start a thread in soteriology . Trust me if you build it we will come

 

[rnmomof7]

I am new to the Christian Forum. I will go back and re-read the rules. I thought this thread was asking for the opinion of non-calvinists. When I am in the OBOB thread, we see alot of non-catholic opinion. But, I can see that I was wrong. I truly was interested in giving my honest opinion without starting a fight....silly me...when do people ever talk about religion and faith without a fight. If I have a chip on my shoulder, you may be sure that I developed it the help of another "Christian". So...times awasting and I'm sure I have some other place to be.

The rules in both forums are that fellowship and questions are allowed but not debate.

 

[CCWoody]

Has anyone ever told you how attractive you are when you get angry?

I'm already taken.

What I actually said was, you only find what you look for, you only look for what you know.

And what is it that you have "found" among we Calvinists: anger, hatred???

BTW, I do reject this type of philosophy that you are using. I'm sure that is not a shock to you.