Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

[strengthinweakness]

I have a personal belief that God has elect believers in all churches. I do not believe everyone that claims the doctrines of grace is saved.We are not saved by our church attendance or our denominational title. I do believe that would be a commonly held belief by most reformed believers.

We will however press the gospel on all men not knowing their eternal status.
Because someone was born into a Christian family or always goes to church on Sundays or says their prayers or goes to bible study does not indicate the condition of their soul, because none of those activities save anyone.

For that reason we present the gospel message to all men, men in our own churches and in other churches.

I was attending church and active in ministries and as unsaved as can be for many years.So I know from personal experience salvation does not = intellectual assent + good works.

Salvation is an act, a miracle of God on our behalf

Tell that to Adam and Eve and Noah , the Pharaoh and Sodom.
God is love and he is mercy, He is also Holy and impeccable and JUST.

His holiness and justice demanded the cross . His grace and mercy is not unlimited or universal, it is very specifically applied.

He tells us quite plainly that "I will have mercy on whom I will have Mercy"(rom 9). His mercy is meaningless without His justice.

As a redeemed believer I know Gods mercy and grace 1st hand, I surely have not one thing in me that deserves it.
One problem is if one thinks that mercy is cheap and easy to obtain, if they see that as an expected manifestation of God or that it is due to them as a result of their human attempts at holiness, then to that person it has little REAL value.

To the man that knows he was dead in his sin and laying in a gutter of filth when God dragged him out, to that man the mercy was truly mercy and truly a miracle.

In short if we do not have fear of the wrath of God and a full understanding of His justice, then our salvation is just another days work for God and nothing special.

All men are not the children of God only the saved are his children, the rest are the" children of wrath" or as Jesus said the sons of their father Satan.



The beauty of Calvinism is PEACE. I know without a doubt that not ONE thing happens in my life or in this nation or in this world that is an accident or a surprise to God.

When you know that even your cancer is a gift from God you take it as an opportunity from His hand to grow in his grace and to give glory to Him.

You know if your child dies it was not because God was a helpless observer or had his attention distracted.
It is His plan and perfect. We really believe this verse.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

We know that this is true because he is the author of all things and works all things for His glory and our eternal good.

This short article was written by a reformed Baptist Pastor as a reflection before he went in for Cancer surgery.

I think you will see the heart of Calvinism in his words.

http://desiringgod.org/library/fresh_words/2006/021506.html



We do love you sister, or we would not take the time to talk to you.

to every single word in your post, my sister in Christ! This is, hands-down, one of the best posts that I have read at CF, whether here at Semper Reformanda, or anywhere else! You have truly glorified God and loved others well (not that the two are separated) with your thoughts and your spirit here!

 

[Dolly]

Unfortunately some Christians behave in a most unchristian way by downing Calvinists who are actually people who respect God's sovereignty (that he IS actually GOD). When I get to heaven God's going to be calling the shots & it suits me fine. I really appreciate God's sovereignty. Didn't the Bible say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart? Pharaoh did not harden his own heart. God hardened it. Yet the others say that God is not in complete control? Also the NT says some pretty scary things that will demonstrate God's mercy to the 'elect'. "Elect" - another word the others haven't seem to have come across.

 

[Catherineanne]

The beauty of Calvinism is PEACE. I know without a doubt that not ONE thing happens in my life or in this nation or in this world that is an accident or a surprise to God.

When you know that even your cancer is a gift from God you take it as an opportunity from His hand to grow in his grace and to give glory to Him.

You know if your child dies it was not because God was a helpless observer or had his attention distracted.
It is His plan and perfect. We really believe this verse.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

We know that this is true because he is the author of all things and works all things for His glory and our eternal good.

I am only looking at the beautiful bits at present. This truly is beautiful, but do you imagine it is unique to Calvinism?

All of this is true of my faith.

None of it means that I am not free to make choices in my life, in the knowledge that God will honour my right to do so, and will go with me.

 

[Catherineanne]

Catherineanne,

Thanks for your posts. How many Calvinists have you read?

I can tell by your statement that you have a fine grasp of the cartoon version of Calvinism, but you don't seem to have much knowledge of the real item.

I think that few people would choose as a teacher one who gloats about their own knowledge, while mocking another for their relative ignorance. Every journey begins with the first step.

Thanks for the offer, though.

 

[Catherineanne]

I have a strange feeling that Catherine doesn't want to actually learn about what Calvinists REALLY teach.

So much easier to hate the cartoon version.........

Your strange feelings are your own concern.

My faith is not about hating anyone. Or is that not transparently obvious?

What I want to learn about is the beauty of Calvinism. I have seen its angry face, but I am seeking its love and compassion. I have found some of it, and there we have common ground. I am trying to see how much common ground exists. If this is what some of you regard as a cartoon version of your faith, well, that is your choice. It has no bearing on the reality that I see.

 

[drstevej]

None of it means that I am not free to make choices in my life, in the knowledge that God will honour my right to do so, and will go with me.

In your Bruce Almighty theology why pray for someone's salvation, for a wayward son or daughter, or that your boss would treat you with kindness ??? If God has to "go with" your choices, why ask Him to pre-empt the free will of others ... or even influence their freedom!

===

Bruce: How do you make somebody love you without affecting free will?

God: Welcome to my world, son.

 

[Imblessed]

Your strange feelings are your own concern.

true!

My faith is not about hating anyone. Or is that not transparently obvious?

you sure have done an about face in the last couple of pages.......right now, you are going on and on about not hating calvinism, and looking for only the good parts, but try going back and reading some of your first posts. They were dripping with dislike, and aimed at what you THOUGHT calvinism said.

What I want to learn about is the beauty of Calvinism. I have seen its angry face, but I am seeking its love and compassion. I have found some of it, and there we have common ground. I am trying to see how much common ground exists. If this is what some of you regard as a cartoon version of your faith, well, that is your choice. It has no bearing on the reality that I see.

You have seen what you wish to see, Catherine, and we cannot help that. When you come into this room and start complaining about how mean calvinists are, and how we portray God as mean, and you cannot accept anything about God that is not most loving and kind, then of course we cannot help how you feel about calvinism. The "beauty" of calvinism is that we CAN see more than just a prissy kind of love from God and we can rejoice in that!

Too many people cannot accept the God who punishes, or the God who dares influence us, or the God molds us as clay, using our experiences and our choices and our pagan ways to turn us into who we are. They are not willing to accept a God who is not a benevolant doting grandfather type who sits up in heaven lets us run the show.

NOTHING is an accident, and NOTHING happens that God did not intend. There is nothing outside of God's control, certainly not our feeble and fickle wills, blowing whichever the wind blows. The "beauty" in Calvinism is that God is BIG enough to take our feeble and fickle wills and turn them to Him.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I think that few people would choose as a teacher one who gloats about their own knowledge, while mocking another for their relative ignorance. Every journey begins with the first step.

Thanks for the offer, though.

Your the guest here, and you came in to this forum in a rude, ugly manner. You clearly know nothing of what we truly believe, and have shown from the first post that you are the one who hold us and our views in contempt.Yoo have insulted us from your very first post. then you act as though we are the ones being all high and mights. You need to look into the mirror, and stop pointing fingers.

If you do want to discuss anything and actually aim for understanding, I would be very happy to assist you. The balls in your court.

I do hope you will take a first step away from your own hatred Calvinists.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[Gwaihir]

Which are you really asking? Are you asking why Calvinist are so unpopular? First of all...I didn't know that they were. Or are you asking, "Why is Calvinism so unpopular?", which at least agrees with the Thread Title. My wife is a Southern Baptist and a 5 point Calvinist. She is the most caring and the most Christian person that I know. But, when she starts in with the tenents of Calvinism....my eyes glaze over. Most Calvinist that I've met or argued with, and I am not looking for a fight here, have a problem with tolerance and humility. They assume their opposition is part of the Devils army, which is not so. Most people are doing what they think is right even if often it is wrong. Remember...you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....assuming that you're into flies in a big way.

 

[Imblessed]

I am only looking at the beautiful bits at present. This truly is beautiful, but do you imagine it is unique to Calvinism?

All of this is true of my faith.

None of it means that I am not free to make choices in my life, in the knowledge that God will honour my right to do so, and will go with me.

did we say we were not free to make choices in our lives? NO!

But we are also not so blind as to think that God "honors" any decision we make. Yes, God will always be there, but have you not heard of God's chastisement for believers? He even punishes some believers unto death. I have personally felt the consequences for disobeying God and going my own way....

 

[Proeliator]

NOTHING is an accident, and NOTHING happens that God did not intend. There is nothing outside of God's control, certainly not our feeble and fickle wills, blowing whichever the wind blows. The "beauty" in Calvinism is that God is BIG enough to take our feeble and fickle wills and turn them to Him.

Nicely put!

 

[drstevej]

Which are you really asking? Are you asking why Calvinist are so unpopular? First of all...I didn't know that they were. Or are you asking, "Why is Calvinism so unpopular?", which at least agrees with the Thread Title. My wife is a Southern Baptist and a 5 point Calvinist. She is the most caring and the most Christian person that I know. But, when she starts in with the tenents of Calvinism....my eyes glaze over. Most Calvinist that I've met or argued with, and I am not looking for a fight here, have a problem with tolerance and humility. They assume their opposition is part of the Devils army, which is not so. Most people are doing what they think is right even if often it is wrong. Remember...you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....assuming that you're into flies in a big way.

A Catholic guy married to a Five Point Calvinist Southern Baptist lady.

You are a fortunate young man.

Do you guys sell tickets to dinner table discussions?

 

[Dolly]

Which are you really asking? Are you asking why Calvinist are so unpopular? First of all...I didn't know that they were. Or are you asking, "Why is Calvinism so unpopular?", which at least agrees with the Thread Title. My wife is a Southern Baptist and a 5 point Calvinist. She is the most caring and the most Christian person that I know. But, when she starts in with the tenents of Calvinism....my eyes glaze over. Most Calvinist that I've met or argued with, and I am not looking for a fight here, have a problem with tolerance and humility. They assume their opposition is part of the Devils army, which is not so. Most people are doing what they think is right even if often it is wrong. Remember...you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....assuming that you're into flies in a big way.

Have you tried taking a course in communication skills?

 

[PuritanLady]

Have you tried taking a course in communication skills?

I have to laugh. Becoming a calvinist greatly increased my communication AND research skills! It is a challenge and many ppl would rather just not play than to take the time and learn about the other party or more about themselves.

 

[PuritanLady]

Which are you really asking? Are you asking why Calvinist are so unpopular? First of all...I didn't know that they were. Or are you asking, "Why is Calvinism so unpopular?", which at least agrees with the Thread Title. My wife is a Southern Baptist and a 5 point Calvinist. She is the most caring and the most Christian person that I know. But, when she starts in with the tenents of Calvinism....my eyes glaze over. Most Calvinist that I've met or argued with, and I am not looking for a fight here, have a problem with tolerance and humility. They assume their opposition is part of the Devils army, which is not so. Most people are doing what they think is right even if often it is wrong. Remember...you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....assuming that you're into flies in a big way.

So, you don't take the time to have a serious discussion with her about her beliefs and yours? You just "glaze over"/ignore her? I'm sorry to hear that.
Whenever my husband and I disagree, we discuss it over and over. Sometimes a little at a time.

 

[rnmomof7]

I am only looking at the beautiful bits at present. This truly is beautiful, but do you imagine it is unique to Calvinism?

All of this is true of my faith.

None of it means that I am not free to make choices in my life, in the knowledge that God will honour my right to do so, and will go with me.

I think that before I was a calvinist I gave lip service to the sovereignty of God, but I always had this feeling that what we would call the really bad things could not come from God.

I think that the comic character of Satan as the cause of our sin or the sin of others overlooks he does not need to make us want to sin. We all want to sin, that is a part of our unredeemed nature . Satan does not "make us do it" That ia a part of the fallen nature.

People were very upset on 9/11 when some Christians denied that it was a work of Satan but a part of Gods plan.

Men have a free will, men can do just as they will, the problem is that the will of the unregenerate will never choose Christ. It will always choose sin, because all choices are made because of our preferences . Unregenerate man will always prefer to act according to their unregenerate nature.

Adam and Eve had a truly free will. The could make a choice between obedience and sin . That nature was bound in sin after the fall. Man is a spirit being inside of a body, on the day they ate that fruit they dies spiritually. That is why we need to be born again to see or desire the kingdom of God.

In order to Choose Christ one needs a new nature, one that has been regenerated and can now make true free will choices.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

 

[Gwaihir]

A Catholic guy married to a Five Point Calvinist Southern Baptist lady. You are a fortunate young man. Do you guys sell tickets to dinner table discussions?

Actually we are fortunate to have each other, and we never discuss religion during dinnner. We have both learned alot about each other and each others beliefs. She will probably always be Protestant and I will always be Catholic, but we can both operate within the culture of each other's faith without a problem.

Have you tried taking a course in communication skills?

There is no need for we understand each other well, the eye glaze is a case of...'I understand what your belief system is but I can't buy into it'. Especially Double Predestination (People created by God expressly for Hell).

So, you don't take the time to have a serious discussion with her about her beliefs and yours? You just "glaze over"/ignore her? I'm sorry to hear that.
Whenever my husband and I disagree, we discuss it over and over. Sometimes a little at a time.

Actually in the last 9 years we have had lots of discussions about Calvinism and Catholicism, almost to the point of saturation. I know what she believes, she knows what I believe and even though there is no agreement on religion, there is agreement on what is important in our lives....namely Jesus Christ. When we first dated, she drew up our statements of faith to compare them and found there was basically no difference. If it were between the two of us there would be no strife between Baptists and Catholics. I will not let anything worldly come between she and I and the love that I bear her.

 

[Gwaihir]

Your the guest here, and you came in to this forum in a rude, ugly manner. You clearly know nothing of what we truly believe, and have shown from the first post that you are the one who hold us and our views in contempt.Yoo have insulted us from your very first post. then you act as though we are the ones being all high and mights. You need to look into the mirror, and stop pointing fingers.

If you do want to discuss anything and actually aim for understanding, I would be very happy to assist you. The balls in your court.

I do hope you will take a first step away from your own hatred Calvinists.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

I sent you 200 blessings....I hope you got them

 

[drstevej]

When we first dated, she drew up our statements of faith to compare them and found there was basically no difference..

Either one or both of you needed to do more homework -OR- you were a CINO and a BINO.

 

[CCWoody]

I have seen its angry face,....

Weren't you the one that said you find what you seek?