Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

[Catherineanne]

First, the Doctrines of Grace, also known as the five points of Calvinism, humbles man and exults God. It takes everything away from man and gives it to God.

Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.

Doesn't appeal to me.

 

[CCWoody]

Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.

Doesn't appeal to me.

Have you seen anyone for all of this anger that you are displaying toward we Calvinists?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.

Doesn't appeal to me.

Whether or not something appeals to you or me is not the question. These teachings were very unappealing to me when I first encountered them, but what mattered was not what I liked or disliked.

Is this (Calvinism) what God's Word says? If the answer is yes, and I believe it is, than we must bow to what the Lord says whether it appeals to us or not.

"...Let God be true, every man a liar..."

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[heymikey80]

Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.

Doesn't appeal to me.

Excuse me, Catherineanne, but I have a question. As you must know every single Calvinist is arrogant as hades before my fellowman, what exactly have I done to deserve your epithets and attacks?

You attack all Calvinists, which seems presumptuous to me at least, even arrogant.

And no, I don't believe only Calvinists will be in heaven. In fact I'll stretch your mind a bit -- I feel sure that a certain ancient Gnostic, Valentinus, will also be in heaven, as likely will Tertullian.

We will all be humbled when we see the light. We are all wrong. The sole difference with Calvinists is that we've been exposed to our own darkness a little more profoundly in that light. That generates some high-handedness. But then, Jesus, Peter & Paul also seem a bit high-handed at times (Matt 17:34-35, 20:14-16, 23:, Lk 13:1-5, Acts 2:23,:36,:40, 3:14-17, Rom 1:22-32, 8:31-39, 1 Cor 5:1-6:11, Gal 1:6-9, 2:11, 5:2-12). If we are to represent the ministry Christ founded, we shall represent this high-handedness.

Jesus did not set standards for sinlessness in terms of repentance, but Jesus preached the Gospel of repentance from sins, not acceptance of sins. This is a critical nuance on how He accepted and, yes, rejected sinners, both. Jesus preached a Gospel of Redemption. It can neither be simple acceptance nor simple rejection. Redemption is a change of direction.

The religious of Jesus' day didn't see repentance as a serious issue for them, and so they didn't change direction.

 

[CCWoody]

I think a lot of it has to do with what I represent. You see, I was driven from her denomination by the Lord. And, despite claiming to be tolerant of everyone's faith and loving everyone I think she is simply angry and lashing out and all Calvinists.

Funny thing is that I personally don't have anything against Anglicans. My whole English bloodline as far back as I can trace it were Anglicans and I alone am the non-Anglican. I only wish that Anglicans today still clung to their Calvinistic roots as laid out in my own copy of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.

 

[PapaLandShark]

Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.

Doesn't appeal to me.

How can I be arrogant when the only thing I have is the Grace of my Savior and that in itself is a gift?

I am not great...I am grateful.

 

[rnmomof7]

Absolutely.

Which is not where Our Lord himself would put us. I would never expect any of my friends or loved ones to grovel in the dust to me, so why would My Lord, who loves me more than anyone else does; why would he expect such a thing? It makes no sense.

I personally had nothing against Calvinists until this week, but after the responses I have had to some posts, I have learnt that Calvinism means intolerance of other points of view, culminating in judgement of others salvation, to the point of rudeness and beyond.

I would be very pleased to learn that, actually, Calvinism isn't like this, and that there is a willingness to listen to other points of view, even if you do not share them. That would be a good thing to hear.

I think that our assurance of the correctness of our doctrine and our unwillingness to "compromise' to get along or to be liked can be perceived as being unloving or intolerant.

But most of us believe the most unloving thing we can do is allow someone to hold a doctrine that does not line up with scripture be that first of all salvation by faith alone as that is necessary for their eternity. To the saved we encourage sound doctrine as taught in the scriptures to give all the glory to God in all things and honor His total sovereignty over ALL the events of men .

In our belief system we have a duty and an obligation to present the gospel to all men.
What is perhaps different is we do not believe it is our job to persuade them or that we can 'love them" to Christ. We see that as the work of the holy Spirit and Gods grace not our ability or personality.


If we think about Christ, He was not always loving or persuasive in His ministry. He did not compromise what he knew as true.The bible tells us that people were "amazed " at His doctrine. He did not compromise the truth to be liked or respected.


God does not hold the same love for all his creation, no matter what the popular seeker friendly message given today says.

We have become so accustom to singing that" all men are my brothers" we think that is gospel truth.
It is not.
All that are saved are the adopted children of Christ. The unsaved are not as of yet our brothers (assuming that some may be in the future). But as creations of God they deserve our respect and consideration. You will find calvinists as Missionaries and in the helping professions because we understand that as a part of the gospel commands.

God loves those that are His with the saving love of the Father. He has a general love of all his creation and he shares His gifts and blessings with all men ( he has the sun shine and the rain fall on the righteous and unrighteous alike)

Calvinists as a rule love to debate doctrine. You will find most have a strong love of scripture and study it intensely. They also love church history and theology , so usually they will say 'bring on the debate"

The most loving thing that I or any Christian can do is explain the gospel message to someone that does not know it. The most significant thing we can when we believe it is misrepresented is to correct the error or teach it as presented in the scriptures.

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

BTW most of us are "nice" folks and do not beat small children or animals

 

[rnmomof7]

Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.

Doesn't appeal to me.

When I was first presented with the doctrines of Calvinism I hate them.


But I am a student of scripture, suddenly I realized how many passages I had read "over" and how many times I had been told "this does not mean what it says"

As I began my study of Ephesians the light went on and I realized for the first time that i was so unworthy of Gods love, so unworthy of Gods grace and that I was totally unable to save my self.

My mind went back to the moment of my salvation and I remembered that at that moment I KNEW it was a pure act of God . The verse from Romans comes to my mind when I think of that night

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

I was not looking to be "saved" that night,I did not believe in any such experience. Yet God made himself manifest to me in a way I could never again deny.

It was a pure act of God, a miracle .

As I pondered the words of Paul and remembered that night I knew that the Doctrines of grace were correct, that salvation is all of God, from beginning to end.

No one comes to God because he chooses to.

The bible tells us the Father "drags us" (John 6:44)

Dragged by His love and grace we come joyfully and willingly and desire Him because "He loved us first"

 

[Catherineanne]

I think that our assurance of the correctness of our doctrine and our unwillingness to "compromise' to get along or to be liked can be perceived as being unloving or intolerant.

But most of us believe the most unloving thing we can do is allow someone to hold a doctrine that does not line up with scripture be that first of all salvation by faith alone as that is necessary for their eternity.

BTW most of us are "nice" folks and do not beat small children or animals

Thank you for your explanation. Glad to hear about the children and animals, btw. Its only fellow Christians that get beaten up, then?

Can you in turn appreciate that it is a real problem when your need to define doctrine for people of other denominations means that you have to doubt their salvation, and tell them so? (Not you personally, but some people not a million miles away.)

I might find it very doubtful that an evangelical (for example) can find God via their (to me) weird approach to faith, but I would never dream of thinking that I therefore have the authority, or the right, to cause them to stumble in their walk with God, or cause them to doubt the validity of their faith.

In my opinion, to do so would mean my taking the place of God, in presuming to define their judgement. People here seem to like the 'fear and trembling' kind of faith. Well, this puts me into fear and trembling. I cannot, I absolutely cannot, take over God's role, and say, they are barking mad and cannot possibly find salvation through x, y or z. But neither can I see him as anything other than he is, which is Love, Mercy and Compassion. The vengeful God makes no sense. It makes no sense in the context of parenthood, and therefore a thousand times less does it make sense for God, and for us as his children.

If anyone here sees this as anti Calvinist, or angry, then what they are seeing is a part of their own anger. I have no anger towards Calvinism. I am trying very hard to find what is the heart of beauty in this part of faith, so that I can overcome the resentment I am feeling about the way I have been addressed. I am trying to learn to love Calvinism, but it is not easy.

Otherwise, I could just walk away and leave you all to it. It is easy enough to love those who love me, and spend all my time there.

 

[Catherineanne]

How can I be arrogant when the only thing I have is the Grace of my Savior and that in itself is a gift?

I am not great...I am grateful.

Amen.

This kind of message works far better. Focus on what you have, and how beautiful it is. Then we can truly meet on hallowed ground, and share fellowship.

 

[Catherineanne]

I think a lot of it has to do with what I represent. You see, I was driven from her denomination by the Lord. And, despite claiming to be tolerant of everyone's faith and loving everyone I think she is simply angry and lashing out and all Calvinists.

Our Lord does not drive anyone out of one denomination and into another. That makes no sense.

You chose to go. That was your free choice, made by your own decision and at your own responsibility. I am sure that God has honoured that choice and travelled with you.

I am pleased that you have found a denomination which is more suited to your spirituality. As for anger; that is not mine. You know perfectly well whose anger it is.

 

[cygnusx1]

Our Lord does not drive anyone out of one denomination and into another. That makes no sense.

You chose to go. That was your free choice, made by your own decision and at your own responsibility. I am sure that God has honoured that choice and travelled with you.

I am pleased that you have found a denomination which is more suited to your spirituality. As for anger; that is not mine. You know perfectly well whose anger it is.

I remember choosing my parents and appointing them as major influences in my life , and so it was that I selected the best denomination , and freely chose to leave her , my self determination is limitless...... and I like a God who is content with being a spectator always .... I am also going to do anything I like and there is no need to recognise God's will ......... I have been given free-will so I can do anything ....... after all that is what gives us meaning right...

Here's the thing are you under any obligation to love God and honour Him with love obedience and faithfulness , or is that non obligatory and optional ?

 

[Catherineanne]

I remember choosing my parents and appointing them as major influences in my life , and so it was that I selected the best denomination , and freely chose to leave her , my self determination is limitless...... and I like a God who is content with being a spectator always .... I am also going to do anything I like and there is no need to recognise God's will ......... I have been given free-will so I can do anything ....... after all that is what gives us meaning right...

Here's the thing are you under any obligation to love God and honour Him with love obedience and faithfulness , or is that non obligatory and optional ?

A well trained dog is taught to behave as a puppy, and treat the people around him as pack leaders, while he remains obedient and submissive. Humans are not dogs, to sit and bark on command.

God did not create us to be permanent infants. He created us to grow to have an adult relationship with him. I think the Incarnation is proof enough that God is not a spectator.

Am I under any obligation to love God? No. Only the obligation of knowing that he loved me first. If my friends love me, how can I help loving them in return? And the same goes for God, only more so because his love is perfect, and anyone else's is human.

We are none of us under any obligations whatever. We choose our own morality, and live by it. That would appear self evident from the vast difference in behaviours of people around the world. The heartening thing I see is not how damaged mankind is, but how inherantly striving for virtue it is. Even though we often fail, nonetheless, the majority try to do what is right. Which is what you would expect from a people made in the image of God, as we all are.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

A well trained dog is taught to behave as a puppy, and treat the people around him as pack leaders, while he remains obedient and submissive. Humans are not dogs, to sit and bark on command.

God did not create us to be permanent infants. He created us to grow to have an adult relationship with him. I think the Incarnation is proof enough that God is not a spectator.

Am I under any obligation to love God? No. Only the obligation of knowing that he loved me first. If my friends love me, how can I help loving them in return? And the same goes for God, only more so because his love is perfect, and anyone else's is human.

We are none of us under any obligations whatever. We choose our own morality, and live by it. That would appear self evident from the vast difference in behaviours of people around the world. The heartening thing I see is not how damaged mankind is, but how inherantly striving for virtue it is. Even though we often fail, nonetheless, the majority try to do what is right. Which is what you would expect from a people made in the image of God, as we all are.

Catherineanne,

Thanks for your posts. How many Calvinists have you read?

I can tell by your statement that you have a fine grasp of the cartoon version of Calvinism, but you don't seem to have much knowledge of the real item.

I am glad you have expressed you opinions on these things above, but how about us looking at what the Bible says on all this stuff?

I would be willing to discuss the Scriptures with you, but I don't watnt to just throw out opinions.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Imblessed]

Kenith,

I have a strange feeling that Catherine doesn't want to actually learn about what Calvinists REALLY teach.

So much easier to hate the cartoon version.........

 

[CardinalBaseball]

I don't really get it, could somebody reading this (from either side) explain why people seem to hate Calvinism so much? I've read some really ridiculous threads on the subject. My favorite is definitely "I'll never join you Count Calvin" in which Calvinism is likened to Count Dooku and the philosophy of the dark side of the force...

The infantile nature of the comparison aside, why is it that yall rub people the wrong way?

Most of them may be Catholics. That's my guess.

 

[cygnusx1]

A well trained dog is taught to behave as a puppy, and treat the people around him as pack leaders, while he remains obedient and submissive. Humans are not dogs, to sit and bark on command.

God did not create us to be permanent infants. He created us to grow to have an adult relationship with him. I think the Incarnation is proof enough that God is not a spectator.

Am I under any obligation to love God? No. Only the obligation of knowing that he loved me first. If my friends love me, how can I help loving them in return? And the same goes for God, only more so because his love is perfect, and anyone else's is human.

We are none of us under any obligations whatever. We choose our own morality, and live by it. That would appear self evident from the vast difference in behaviours of people around the world. The heartening thing I see is not how damaged mankind is, but how inherantly striving for virtue it is. Even though we often fail, nonetheless, the majority try to do what is right. Which is what you would expect from a people made in the image of God, as we all are.

thanks very much for your frank and quite simply amazing reply ....... one could spend weeks asking this question and seldom find anyone want to answer it!

You have shown by your clear answer that God cannot and does not according to your understanding command anyone to do anything , especially command sinners to love Him ....... bang goes the Law of God , and the need for salvation!

should you reply ........ "oh but I do accept that God may command us but He does not threaten us " then maybe another look at the whole Law and it's binding legal demands on all sinners would show you another side to God.

It is just because of the Law of God that Christ had to suffer and die.

All mankind is commanded to Repent and believe the good news , this is NOT a free-will non-obligation option ......... far far from it!

 

[drstevej]

Calvinism isn't just unpopular at CF...

Check out the Crimes of William Tyndale that led to his execution.

Sound familiar?

First: He maintains that faith alone justifies.

Second:He maintains that to believe in the forgiveness of sins and to embrace the mercy offered in the Gospel, is enough for salvation.

Third: He avers that human traditions cannot bind the conscience, except where their neglect might occasion scandal.

Fourth: He denies the freedom of the will.

Fifth: He denies that there is any purgatory.

Sixth: He affirms that neither the Virgin nor the Saints pray for us in their own person.

Seventh: He asserts that neither the Virgin nor the Saints should be invoked by us.

 

[cygnusx1]

Calvinism isn't just unpopular at CF...

Check out the Crimes of William Tyndale that led to his execution.

Sound familiar?

First: He maintains that faith alone justifies.

Second:He maintains that to believe in the forgiveness of sins and to embrace the mercy offered in the Gospel, is enough for salvation.

Third: He avers that human traditions cannot bind the conscience, except where their neglect might occasion scandal.

Fourth: He denies the freedom of the will.

Fifth: He denies that there is any purgatory.

Sixth: He affirms that neither the Virgin nor the Saints pray for us in their own person.

Seventh: He asserts that neither the Virgin nor the Saints should be invoked by us.

Good post brother!

yes I too noticed Tyndales rejection of fallen man's free-will (I think it was in the film) , he was very much like Luther ......... one of the books Luther was asked to burn was 'the Bondage of the will' , if i remember right ....

I seem to remember Tyndale met Luther but Luther and Calvin never met.

 

[rnmomof7]

Thank you for your explanation. Glad to hear about the children and animals, btw. Its only fellow Christians that get beaten up, then?

Can you in turn appreciate that it is a real problem when your need to define doctrine for people of other denominations means that you have to doubt their salvation, and tell them so? (Not you personally, but some people not a million miles away.)

I might find it very doubtful that an evangelical (for example) can find God via their (to me) weird approach to faith, but I would never dream of thinking that I therefore have the authority, or the right, to cause them to stumble in their walk with God, or cause them to doubt the validity of their faith.

I have a personal belief that God has elect believers in all churches. I do not believe everyone that claims the doctrines of grace is saved.We are not saved by our church attendance or our denominational title. I do believe that would be a commonly held belief by most reformed believers.

We will however press the gospel on all men not knowing their eternal status.
Because someone was born into a Christian family or always goes to church on Sundays or says their prayers or goes to bible study does not indicate the condition of their soul, because none of those activities save anyone.

For that reason we present the gospel message to all men, men in our own churches and in other churches.

I was attending church and active in ministries and as unsaved as can be for many years.So I know from personal experience salvation does not = intellectual assent + good works.

Salvation is an act, a miracle of God on our behalf

In my opinion, to do so would mean my taking the place of God, in presuming to define their judgement. People here seem to like the 'fear and trembling' kind of faith. Well, this puts me into fear and trembling. I cannot, I absolutely cannot, take over God's role, and say, they are barking mad and cannot possibly find salvation through x, y or z. But neither can I see him as anything other than he is, which is Love, Mercy and Compassion. The vengeful God makes no sense.

Tell that to Adam and Eve and Noah , the Pharaoh and Sodom.
God is love and he is mercy, He is also Holy and impeccable and JUST.

His holiness and justice demanded the cross . His grace and mercy is not unlimited or universal, it is very specifically applied.

He tells us quite plainly that "I will have mercy on whom I will have Mercy"(rom 9). His mercy is meaningless without His justice.

As a redeemed believer I know Gods mercy and grace 1st hand, I surely have not one thing in me that deserves it.
One problem is if one thinks that mercy is cheap and easy to obtain, if they see that as an expected manifestation of God or that it is due to them as a result of their human attempts at holiness, then to that person it has little REAL value.

To the man that knows he was dead in his sin and laying in a gutter of filth when God dragged him out, to that man the mercy was truly mercy and truly a miracle.

In short if we do not have fear of the wrath of God and a full understanding of His justice, then our salvation is just another days work for God and nothing special.

It makes no sense in the context of parenthood, and therefore a thousand times less does it make sense for God, and for us as his children.

All men are not the children of God only the saved are his children, the rest are the" children of wrath" or as Jesus said the sons of their father Satan.

If anyone here sees this as anti Calvinist, or angry, then what they are seeing is a part of their own anger. I have no anger towards Calvinism. I am trying very hard to find what is the heart of beauty in this part of faith, so that I can overcome the resentment I am feeling about the way I have been addressed. I am trying to learn to love Calvinism, but it is not easy.

The beauty of Calvinism is PEACE. I know without a doubt that not ONE thing happens in my life or in this nation or in this world that is an accident or a surprise to God.

When you know that even your cancer is a gift from God you take it as an opportunity from His hand to grow in his grace and to give glory to Him.

You know if your child dies it was not because God was a helpless observer or had his attention distracted.
It is His plan and perfect. We really believe this verse.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

We know that this is true because he is the author of all things and works all things for His glory and our eternal good.

This short article was written by a reformed Baptist Pastor as a reflection before he went in for Cancer surgery.

I think you will see the heart of Calvinism in his words.

http://desiringgod.org/library/fresh_words/2006/021506.html

Otherwise, I could just walk away and leave you all to it. It is easy enough to love those who love me, and spend all my time there.

We do love you sister, or we would not take the time to talk to you.