Calvinism Refuted

[archierieus]

Yes, I saw that.

You appeared to be reading a presupposition into the text.

Which supposition? Please specify

Also, that was a lot of "human reasoning"

The exegesis? Please clarify what you mean and give specifics.

 

[archierieus]

regeneration logically precedes faith and justification.

Please provide a Bible verse or two which says that. I am asking this in good faith.

 

[Benefactor]

regeneration logically precedes faith and justification. Salvation is a broarer term encompassing all aspects.

We have cited verses and you just keep repeating yourself and telling us what we believe inaccurately.

JDS I am not sure you are willing to genuinely listen to what we are saying.

The Word of God and BAD and Vine completely disagree with you. The Biblical Doctrine of CURED disagrees with you. Logic disagrees with you.

ouk ex ergwn twn en dikaiosunh a epoihsamen hmeiV alla kata to autou

autou eleoV -Noun, genitive, neuter, singular - of God’s mercy
eswsen - Verb, Indicative, aorist, active, third person, singular - He saved
hmaV - Pronoun, accusative, first person, singular - us
dia - Preposition, genitive - through
loutrou - Noun, genitive, neuter, singular - washing
paliggenesiaV - Noun, genitive, feminine, singular - of regeneration

BAG and W. E. Vines define “regeneration” as the new birth. “of the rebirth of a redeemed person”

kai - Conjunction, coordinating - and
anakainwsewV - Noun, genitive, feminine, singular - of renewal
pneumatoV - Noun, genitive, neuter, singular - of Spirit
agiou - Adjective, genitive, neuter, singular - of Holy

I have translated each word as if it were standing on its own so that the person reading who does not know Greek may know that it can be. The point of this is to help the none Greek reader to understand that there is agreement in the relationship of the words with each other.

Translation:

According to God’s mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and the washing of renewal of the Holy Spirit.

The term “regeneration” means “rebirth” as stated above by BAG and Vine.

This one verse completely and totally dismantles the Calvinist teaching on Regeneration as a prerequisite prior to the new birth. Regeneration is the new birth, it is being born from above, it is saved.

 

[Hammster]

Agreed. This is an important point.







He said you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.







Sounds like you have misunderstood or misconstrued 'born again.'

In my bibles (ESV NASB) and 11 others I looked at all said "see" in John 3:3. If yours says "enter" we may have isolated your problem.

I would ask for scriptural support for your accusations misunderstood or misconstrued 'born again', but why bother?

 

[Hammster]

The Word of God and BAD and Vine completely disagree with you. The Biblical Doctrine of CURED disagrees with you. Logic disagrees with you.



ouk ex ergwn twn en dikaiosunh a epoihsamen hmeiV alla kata to autou



autou eleoV -Noun, genitive, neuter, singular - of God’s mercy

eswsen - Verb, Indicative, aorist, active, third person, singular - He saved

hmaV - Pronoun, accusative, first person, singular - us

dia - Preposition, genitive - through

loutrou - Noun, genitive, neuter, singular - washing

paliggenesiaV - Noun, genitive, feminine, singular - of regeneration



BAG and W. E. Vines define “regeneration” as the new birth. “of the rebirth of a redeemed person”



kai - Conjunction, coordinating - and

anakainwsewV - Noun, genitive, feminine, singular - of renewal

pneumatoV - Noun, genitive, neuter, singular - of Spirit

agiou - Adjective, genitive, neuter, singular - of Holy



I have translated each word as if it were standing on its own so that the person reading who does not know Greek may know that it can be. The point of this is to help the none Greek reader to understand that there is agreement in the relationship of the words with each other.



Translation:



According to God’s mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and the washing of renewal of the Holy Spirit.



The term “regeneration” means “rebirth” as stated above by BAG and Vine.



This one verse completely and totally dismantles the Calvinist teaching on Regeneration as a prerequisite prior to the new birth. Regeneration is the new birth, it is being born from above, it is saved.

For the sake of variety, I will answer differently on this thread than I did on the other.

If regeneration means salvation, then what you are claiming is that Paul says we are saved by being saved. Not really sure that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Benefactor]

For the sake of variety, I will answer differently on this thread than I did on the other.

If regeneration means salvation, then what you are claiming is that Paul says we are saved by being saved. Not really sure that makes a lot of sense.

I highly recommend you read verse 6 and 7.

 

[archierieus]

In my bibles (ESV NASB) and 11 others I looked at all said "see" in John 3:3. If yours says "enter" we may have isolated your problem.

Don't have my regular study tools handy, but here is a quick online definition of the word:

1) to go out or come in: to enter 1a) of men or animals, as into a house or a city 1b) of Satan taking possession of the body of a person 1c) of things: as food, that enters into the eater's mouth 2) metaph. 2a) of entrance into any condition, state of things, society, employment 2a1) to arise, come into existence, begin to be 2a2) of men, to come before the public 2a3) to come into life 2b) of thoughts that come into the mind

Here is the link:

http://www.greekbible.com/l.php?ei)se/rxomai_v--aan----_p

KIM as well that the verb here is aorist, that is punctiliar action.

I would ask for scriptural support for your accusations misunderstood or misconstrued 'born again', but why bother?

That is in process, and will compare what the Bible teaches about it side by side with what you have posted.

 

[drstevej]

Please provide a Bible verse or two which says that. I am asking this in good faith.

John 3:3
1 John 5:1-5

 

[Hammster]

Don't have my regular study tools handy, but here is a quick online definition of the word:





Here is the link:



http://www.greekbible.com/l.php?ei)se/rxomai_v--aan----_p



KIM as well that the verb here is aorist, that is punctiliar action.







That is in process, and will compare what the Bible teaches about it side by side with what you have posted.

So that's the definition of "see"? I wonder how all the translators got it wrong. Strange.

 

[archierieus]

What is your specific view of what Water means? Your specific view

A. The Word
B. Baptism
C. Natural Birth
D. _____________ if none of the above fill in the blank.

I would like to respond and comment on these options. First, the idea of it being natural birth:

1. I am not aware of anywhere in the gospels, or in the NT for that matter, physical birth is described as being born 'of water.'
2. Physical birth IS described by Jesus and the gospel writers in a different way than 'born of water.'

These two considerations together reduce the probability of the phrase referring to physical birth. In addition, there is nothing about the word 'water' itself as used here which would support the idea of it describing physical birth. Gr. for 'water' here pertains to water in rivers, fountains, pools.

Secondly, the idea that 'of water' pertains to the Word. Jesus spoke often of the Word, the Scriptures. But He never described it as 'water.' When Jesus does speak of water in a symbolic sense, He refers to the Holy Spirit, (cf. Jn. 7) but never to the Word. When He spoke of the Scriptures, He referred to them as the Scriptures. Paul speaks of the washing of regeneration through the Word, I believe--although even that verse does not equate the Word with water.

Since Jesus DID speak of water as signifying the Holy Spirit in some places, should we conclude that that He is meaning the Spirit when He mentions water in v. 3? Problem is, Jesus says 'of water AND the Spirit.' For that reason, this option does not appear reasonable.

Remaining option above is baptism. Is baptism connected Scripturally with being born again? Is water baptism connected with dying to the old life and rising up to a new life? Is water baptism connected with the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[archierieus]

So that's the definition of "see"? I wonder how all the translators got it wrong. Strange.

They didn't. As for the Greek word, here it is:

εἰσελθεῖν

Even without knowing Greek, one can take a look at the word and break it down. For example, the 'eis' at the beginning. By way of clarification, this is verse 5. I just noticed that you were referring to v. 3 previously. But as for 'see,' go in or into, participate in are within the semantic range.

 

[Hammster]

They didn't. It is well within the range of meanings for the word. As for the Greek word, here it is:



εἰσελθεῖν



Even without knowing Greek, one can take a look at the word and break it down. For example, the 'eis' at the beginning.

So if it is "enter", why did they translate it as "see"? I looked at 11 different translations and none used enter in John 3:3.

 

[archierieus]

So if it is "enter", why did they translate it as "see"? I looked at 11 different translations and none used enter in John 3:3.

Two different verses: I was looking at v. 5, you were looking at v. 3. Lemme check v. 3 a sec.

ἰδεῖν

This word means to see, either visually or to experience. That would also be consistent with to enter in v. 5. Note that, once again, the verb is aorist, that is, punctiliar action.

 

[Hammster]

Two different verses: I was looking at v. 5, you were looking at v. 3. Lemme check v. 3 a sec.



ἰδεῖν



This word means to see, either visually or to experience. That would also be consistent with to enter in v. 5. Note that, once again, the verb is aorist, that is, punctiliar action.

How is see consistent with enter?

 

[Epiphoskei]

This word means to see, either visually or to experience. That would also be consistent with to enter in v. 5. Note that, once again, the verb is aorist, that is, punctiliar action.

The aorist is not punctiliar. This is a misunderstanding that has been on the decline over the last couple decades, but you keep hearing it pop up.

D. A. Carson's book Exegetial Fallacies has a lengthy rebuttal to this view at the beginning of his chapter on grammatical fallicies.

 

[Benefactor]

Two different verses: I was looking at v. 5, you were looking at v. 3. Lemme check v. 3 a sec.

ἰδεῖν

This word means to see, either visually or to experience. That would also be consistent with to enter in v. 5. Note that, once again, the verb is aorist, that is, punctiliar action.

My opinion
verse 3 and 6
apekriqh ihsouV kai eipen autw amhn amhn legw soi ean mh tiV gennhqh anwqen ou dunatai idein thn basileian tou qeou

apekriqh o ihsouV amhn amhn legw soi ean mh tiV gennhqh ex udatoV kai pneumatoV ou dunatai eiselqein eiV thn basileian tou qeou

Because the context is talking about being born from above (gennhqh anwqen) then they are synonymous

 

[Hammster]

My opinion

verse 3 and 6

apekriqh ihsouV kai eipen autw amhn amhn legw soi ean mh tiV gennhqh anwqen ou dunatai idein thn basileian tou qeou



apekriqh o ihsouV amhn amhn legw soi ean mh tiV gennhqh ex udatoV kai pneumatoV ou dunatai eiselqein eiV thn basileian tou qeou



Because the context is talking about being born from above (gennhqh anwqen) then they are synonymous

First, that is a nonsensical statement, unless you can show HOW seeing and entering are synonymous. And, iif somehow you are able to do it, what would make your view the correct view?

 

[archierieus]

The aorist is not punctiliar. This is a misunderstanding that has been on the decline over the last couple decades, but you keep hearing it pop up.

D. A. Carson's book Exegetial Fallacies has a lengthy rebuttal to this view at the beginning of his chapter on grammatical fallicies.

Aorist is a simple action, a one-time event, distinguished from progressive or ongoing action. And that is significant for this occurrence--very significant.

 

[archierieus]

How is see consistent with enter?

The Greek word translated 'see' here has a broader meaning. It doesn't merely mean to see visually, but to experience something. That range of meaning is found in the English word as well, but is rarely applied in America at least. One example is, 'Will I see the day when you finally get a job?!' lolol The translators had to go with 'see' because that is the literal meaning of the word; but once again, limitations of language prevent the richness of the original from showing through. For the translators to have added an explanation would have detracted from the text.

So for Jesus to speak in v. 3 of 'seeing' the kingdom of God and then in v. 5 to speak of entering the kingdom of God are quite similar. The action described is a one-time event, ENTERING the kingdom of God. It is not a process, progression or continuing action, but a point in time. That itself is quite significant for purposes of understanding the application of the word.

 

[archierieus]

But I AM not new to scripture. It is because there are so many loopholes in the view you and others hold that I started believing in the doctrines of grace.

Please explain.