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Calvinism Refuted

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Pardon me if I do not engage in Calvinists self deception. This is a silly question.
Whew.. Can't even answer a simple question. Faith when one has it in order to be saved originates also from God. Not from within ourselves. We cannot have saving faith unless God gives us this.. So therefore if faith preceeds regeneration it is still not from free will choice but is also a gift of God..
For Jesus is the very author of our Faith.. He is also the one who will perfect our faith.. He is all we are just the recipients to His great and wonderful Gifts..
 
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We do know that we must be born of water and born from above. We know that for sure. What we all differ on is what "born of water" refers to.

1. If water baptism is the correct view then of necessity all who are born from above of necessity must be baptized to completely seal the new birth.

2. If water means "the word of God" then this is a statement of revelation of which only God performs in the same understanding of one becoming born from above, and I am not sure I explained it adequately.

3. If water means birth into this life then that takes care of itself and all that remains is to be born from above.

 
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Hammster

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The word water is not used symbolically in John 3. A distinction is being made in two different kinds of births, flesh and Spirit. The context must be relied upon to determine the meaning.



3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



There can be no doubt that being born of water is in reference to be born of flesh when these words are taken at face value.



From verse 10 through 21, Jesus is answering the question posed to him in V 9 of how a man can be born again of the Spirit.



Water baptism is not essential for being born again. See the story of Cornelius in Acts 10, 11.



I have to disagree that water represents natural birth, not because I am a Calvinist, but because of Jesus' rebuke of Nicodemus. Nicodemus should have understood about water and the Spirit. More that likely, although admittedly not concrete, Jesus was referring ti Ezekiel 36-25-27. There you have clean water being sprinkled for cleansing and a new heart given. This is done for God's glory and not for the works of Israel.

Since this passages deals with Isreal, and not gentiles, it would then help John 3:16 make sense in that Jesus is expanding Nicodemus' horizon beyond Israel into the whole world.
 
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drstevej

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And it disagrees with those who first set forth what has become classical dispensationalism. Yours is the minority position.

By the way Wikipedia also lists your view under hyperdispensationalism.

Just sayin'.

We can discuss further in the proper forum.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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And it disagrees with those who first set forth what has become classical dispensationalism. Yours is the minority position.

By the way Wikipedia also lists your view under hyperdispensationalism.

Just sayin'.

We can discuss further in the proper forum.
How about this one? What the heck is the difference between a "zealous" and "hyper" Calvinist :confused:

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=4416163&postcount=111

poster: Is this the view of all Calvinists?

response Calvinist: No, just zealous Calvinists but not hyper Calvinists.
 
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JDS

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And it disagrees with those who first set forth what has become classical dispensationalism. Yours is the minority position.

By the way Wikipedia also lists your view under hyperdispensationalism.

Just sayin'.

We can discuss further in the proper forum.


Let me say this slowly.

My view is the church began with the apostle in Acts 2.


Eph 2:20 - They are the foundation.

Christ is the Cornerstone
Believers are the stucture.

There are 3 parts to this building.

On this rock, I will build my church.....

This is important to the topic we are on because one must understand the church in order to understand election and predestination. Ephesians is the main book in scripture that teaches about the church.

Where do you have the church beginning? Adam?
 
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I have to disagree that water represents natural birth, not because I am a Calvinist, but because of Jesus' rebuke of Nicodemus. Nicodemus should have understood about water and the Spirit. More that likely, although admittedly not concrete, Jesus was referring ti Ezekiel 36-25-27. There you have clean water being sprinkled for cleansing and a new heart given. This is done for God's glory and not for the works of Israel.

Since this passages deals with Isreal, and not gentiles, it would then help John 3:16 make sense in that Jesus is expanding Nicodemus' horizon beyond Israel into the whole world.

That would mean you approach it from an amillennial view. I am a dispensationalist and I apply Ezekiel 36:25-27 to the second coming yet future

So then we would need to add a 4th interpretation
 
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student ad x

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That would be of interest to me. Please identify what you see as assertions. As for any positions taken by this student in regard to textual evidence, do you have or propose other evidence which would indicate those positions to be incorrect?



You are refuting Calvinism. You have not disproved total depravity yet have asserted that fallen man has the innate libertarian free will ability to change his nature within himself to be able to repent and have faith before being born from above.

For the Reformed refutation of your other posts on regeneration:

from Reymond
Why do some people repent and respond by faith in Christ to the divine
summons to faith while others do not? Concerning those who believe in
Christ’s name John immediately says in John 1:13: “[These are they] who
have been begotten [egennēthēsan], not by blood, nor by the will of the
flesh, nor by the will of a husband, but by God.” By this particular
reference to God’s “begetting” activity John refers to regeneration, and
clearly suggests by his statement that, while faith is the instrumental
precondition to justification and adoption, regeneration is the
necessary precondition and efficient cause of faith in Jesus Christ. In
short, regeneration causally precedes faith.

This sequential order of “regeneration as the cause, faith in Jesus
Christ as the effect” is supported by Jesus’ statements in John 3:3, 5.
When Jesus teaches that only those who have been “begotten from above”
(anōthen) can “see” and “enter” the kingdom of God (figurative
expressions for “faith activities”), he surely intends that regeneration
is essential to faith as the latter’s causal prius.

John’s statement in 1 John 5:1, “Everyone who believes [pisteuōn] that
Jesus is the Christ has been begotten [gegennētai] by God,” also bears
out the sequential cause and effect relationship between regeneration as
cause and faith as effect. It is true, if one were to restrict his
assessment of John’s intended meaning to only this one verse, that one
could conceivably argue that John, by his reference to regeneration, was
simply saying something more, in a descriptive way, about everyone who
believes that Jesus is the Christ—that he “has been begotten by God,”
but that he need not be understood as suggesting that a cause and effect
relationship exists between God’s regenerating activity and saving
faith. But when one takes into account that John says in 1 John 3:9a
that “everyone who has been begotten [gegennēmenos] by God does not do
sin, because [hoti] his seed abides in him” and then in 1 John 3:9b that
“he is not able to sin, because [hoti] he has been begotten
[gegennētai—the word in 5:1] by God,” we definitely find a cause and
effect relationship between God’s regenerating activity as the cause and
the Christian’s not sinning as one effect of that regenerating activity.

Then when he later makes the simple statement in 1 John 5:18 that
“everyone who has7 In every other place where it occurs in the Gospel of
John—3:31; 19:11, 23— anōthen, means “from above.” been begotten
[perfect tense] by God sins [present tense] not,” though he does not say
so in so many words, it is surely appropriate, because of his earlier
pattern of speech in 1 John 3:9, to understand him to mean that the
cause behind one’s not sinning is God’s regenerating activity. What is
significant in 5:18 for 5:1 is his pattern of speech. When John declares
in 5:1 that everyone who believes (pisteuōn) that Jesus is the Christ
has been begotten (gegennētai) by God, it is highly unlikely that he
intended simply to say about the Christian, in addition to the fact that
he believes that Jesus is the Christ, that he has also been begotten of
God and nothing more. His established pattern of speech would suggest
that he intended to say that God’s regenerating activity is the cause of
one’s believing that Jesus is the Christ, and conversely that such faith
is the effect of that regenerating work.

When one adds to this Paul’s insistence in Ephesians 2:1–4 that he and
Christians generally had been spiritually dead in their trespasses and
sins until God, “who is rich in mercy, because of his great love by
which he loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive
[synezōopoiēsen—Paul’s term for regeneration] with Christ,” the
conclusion cannot be avoided that God’s regenerating work must causally
precede a man’s faith response to God’s summons to faith. Consequently,
regeneration must be positioned before repentance unto life and faith in
Jesus Christ in the ordo salutis as the cause of both. But since Romans
8:29– 30 clearly teaches that glorification is the last act in the ordo,
implying thereby, when Paul speaks earlier of calling, that he intended
to teach that effectual calling is the first act in the “series of acts
and processes” in the ordo, we may safely conclude that regeneration
either follows upon calling or is the effecting force within calling
which makes God’s summons effectual (I shall argue the case for the
latter possibility later).

Accordingly, we have now established the following order of application:
effectual calling, regeneration, repentance unto life and faith in Jesus
Christ, justification, adoption, glorification.

REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH)

* The Biblical Data *

The framers of the Westminster standards offer no separate and distinct
chapter or questions on regeneration, preferring to treat this doctrine,
as we have already noted, within the context of effectual calling. But
the Scriptures have much to say about this gracious work of the Spirit.
Paul employs the word (palingenesia, “regeneration”) itself only once
with reference to the spiritual renewal of an individual: “Not by works
which we have done in righteousness but according to his mercy he saved
us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit”
(Titus 3:5). But he elaborates the doctrinal notion elsewhere under the
terminology of (1) lifegiving resurrection with Christ (Eph. 2:5—“when
we were dead in trespasses, he made us alive with Christ”; Col.
2:13—“when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your
sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ”; see also Rom. 4:17) and
(2) the divine work of new creation (2 Cor. 5:17— “if any man is in
Christ, he is a new creation”; Gal. 6:15—“what counts is a new
creation”; Eph. 2:10—“we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ
Jesus”). Peter and James, as we noted in another context, speak
respectively of God “begetting anew” (1 Pet. 1:23) and “bringing forth”
(James 1:18).

It is particularly John, following the teaching of Jesus himself,
however, who is in a unique sense the “theologian of the birth from
above.” John records Jesus’ “birth from above [John 3:3, 7—, gennēthēnai
anōthen] discourse” in John 3:1–15, and refers eleven times to God’s
“begetting,” in John 1:13 (“who were begotten by God”), 1 John 2:29 (“by
him he has been begotten”), 3:9 (“the one who has been begotten by God,”
“by God he has been begotten”), 4:7 (“by God he has been begotten”), 5:1
(“by God he has been begotten,” “the One who begot,” “the one who has
been begotten by him”), 5:4 (“whatever has been begotten by God”), and
5:18 (“the one who has been begotten by God,” “the one begotten by God”).

Its Effects

By this divine work the sinner is re-created in and to newness of life,
has the defilement of his heart cleansed or “washed” away (Ezek.
36:25–26; John 3:5; Titus 3:5), and is enabled to “see” and to “enter”
the kingdom of God by faith (John 3:3, 5). He is also enabled to believe
in Jesus (John 1:12–13), to believe that Jesus is the Christ (1 John
5:1), to love others, particularly other Christians (1 John 4:7; 5:1);
and to do righteousness and to shun the life of sin (1 John 3:9; 5:18).

* Its Divine Monergism *

Jesus expressly taught the divine monergism in regeneration when he
declared: “No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draws
[helkysē] him” (John 6:44), “Everyone who has heard and learned from the
Father comes to me” (John 6:45), and “No one can come to me, unless it
has been granted [ē dedomenon] him from the Father” (John 6:65). From
the analogy which he drew between the wind’s natural operation and the
Spirit’s regenerating work (John 3:8), Jesus taught, in addition to the
facticity (“The wind blows”) and the efficacy (“and you hear the sound
of it”) of the latter, both the sovereignty (“The wind blows wherever it
pleases”) and the inscrutable mysteriousness (“you cannot tell where it
comes from and where it goes”) of the Spirit’s regenerating work. And
while Jesus declares that the birth “from above” is absolutely necessary
(dei) for faith (John 3:7), he never preaches the “birth from above” in
the imperative mood as if his auditor could in his own power produce it.
By his metaphor of a “begetting from above” to describe the Spirit’s
quickening work, Jesus underscored its divine monergism. J. I. Packer
observes:

Infants do not induce, or cooperate in, their own procreation and birth;
no more can those who are “dead in trespasses and sins” prompt the
quickening operation of God’s Spirit within them (see Eph. 2:1–10).
Spiritual vivification is a free, and to man mysterious, exercise of
divine power (John 3:8), not explicable in terms of the combination or
cultivation of existing human resources (John 3:6), not caused or i
nduced by any human efforts (John 1:12–13) or merits (Titus 3:3–7), and
not, therefore, to be equated with, or attributed to, any of the
experiences, decisions, and acts to which it gives rise and by which it
may be known to have taken place.

Jesus’ metaphor points up how erroneous is Arminianism’s synergistic
construction of regeneration, which makes man’s spiritual renewal
dependent on his cooperation with grace, and liberalism’s vision of
redemption, which denies the need for prevenient grace altogether.
Regeneration is the precondition of repentance unto life and faith in
Jesus Christ; it is not dependent upon these for its appearance in the
Christian life.

Summary of the Doctrine

Regeneration is not the replacing of the substance of fallen human
nature with another substance, nor simply the change in one or more of
the faculties of the fallen spiritual nature, nor the perfecting of the
fallen spiritual nature. Rather, it is the subconscious implanting of
the principle of the new spiritual life in the soul, effecting an
instantaneous change in the whole man, intellectually, emotionally, and
morally, and enabling the elect sinner to respond in repentance and
faith to the outward or public gospel proclamation directed to his
conscious understanding and will. No extra-biblical words have captured
better both the divine monergism and the inevitable effects of the
Spirit’s regenerating work than the following verse from Charles
Wesley’s great hymn, “And can it be that I should gain”:

Long my imprisoned spirit lay Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;

Thine eye diffused a quick’ning ray,

I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;

My chains fell off, my heart was free,

I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

All this is illustrated in the case of Lydia, about whom Luke writes:
“Lydia was listening, whose heart the Lord opened to respond to the
things spoken by Paul” (Acts 16:14).



Excerpts from *A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith 2nd
Edition
http://www.monergismbooks.com/A-New-Systematic-Theology-of-the-Christian-Faith-2nd-ed.-p-16358.html
-
Revised and Updated by Dr. Robert L. Reymond pg. 709
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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student ad x

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How about this one? What the heck is the difference between a "zealous" and "hyper" Calvinist :confused:
poster: Is this the view of all Calvinists?

response Calvinist: No, just zealous Calvinists but not hyper Calvinists.


Good morning LLoJ, :wave:
There is a difference between a fervant low-high Calvinist and a hyper Calvinist. See this chart for a comparison.
 
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cygnusx1

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Good morning LLoJ, :wave:
There is a difference between a fervant low-high Calvinist and a hyper Calvinist. See this chart for a comparison.

absolutely bro , this area is now being covered somewhat in Semper if you are interested . :)
 
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archierieus

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The water has to be broken before babies can be born. The natural birth of flesh.

A number of things have to happen before babies can be born, including 'water breaking.' However, physical birth is not described that way anywhere in the Bible. It IS described in a different way, consistently. Aside from that, the fluid we describe colloquially in our culture as 'water' in physical birth is not what the Greek word in v. 5 says, which is water in streams, fountains, etc.
 
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archierieus

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εἴδω
i'-do
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot.


This is my greek text and what it says about see. Now there is a vast difference between what you have put up and what mine says.

Perhaps you missed the following post. The verb I am referring to is in v. 5. The verb you are referring to is in v. 3.
 
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archierieus

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I appreciate york answer. It was actually one that made sense. My only argument with it is that it only makes a difference if all we were talking about were word-for-word translations. A thought-for-thought translation would not have that restriction, and could very easily used experience instead of see. And since it is a thought-for-thought translation, it would seem best to do so if your view is correct. Also, there are more meanings of the word 'see' than just experience.

Thank you. My own preference is for literal translations. I would tend to see this one as falling within the range of meaning of the word. I have encountered translations which go beyond the word meanings, and substitute different ideas based on what the translators think was intended. Example is the NLB. Not too keen on that type.

Regardless of weather or not it really should mean see or experience really doesn't matter much to the argument. The real issue is what does Jesus mean when He says 'born again', or born from above. The real challenge is to figure out why He would use that particular phrase when He had so many other choices.

Excellent point.

It seems that using born is a way to say that, much like your first, or natural, birth, you have no control over the events. It is just something that happens to you. This would also be consistent with Ephesians 2. It also makes sense in light of Romans 8:28-30. While not a passage directly dealing with regeneration, it does show God's sovereignty in who He chooses and what He does to them.

The first step I would take in seeking to discover the significance of the term, once the word meaning and grammar is addressed, is to look for other places in the gospels or in Scripture where it is used or described. That will be an interesting study, looking forward to it.

Well, enough of that for now. Hopefully I can get some sleep.

These discussions are interesting! Hope you had a good night.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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archierieus

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Yes, I saw that.

You appeared to be reading a presupposition into the text.

Upon reflection, I think I see what you are referring to--that 'born of water' means water baptism. If that is what you meant, it is true indeed that establishing that as the meaning would require going outside the verse in question, it is a step removed from word analysis and, as such premature at this stage of the inquiry. Good point, and one of the values of peer review.

Dave
 
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