Calvinism Refuted

[Robert Pate]

If every one is predestinated why did Jesus command his apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature? Mark 16:15. And then Jesus said in verse 16, "He that believes in me will be saved, and he that does not believe will be damned."

If everyone is predestinated why preach the Gospel at all?

The preaching of the gospel is what draws men to Christ. Jesus said, "When I am lifted up (up on the cross) I will draw all men to myself." When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is there to convict men of their need for Christ. This is how the 5000 were converted on the day of Pentecost. Peter preached the Gospel. Peter did not say that this Gospel is only for the elect. No, he said, "It shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved," Acts 2:21.

The Gospel refutes Calvinism. In the Gospel God has perfected all of humanity and has taken it to heaven. The Gospel is God's great free gift to humanity, Romans 5:18. We have been MADE complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. This Gospel is yours only when by faith you make it yours. If you don't accept it you are still in your sins.

John 1:7, The same came for a witness, of the light, thay ALL MEN through him might believe.

John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 22:15, For you shall be witnesses unto ALL MEN of what you have seen and heard.

Romans 5:12, Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:18, Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

Romans 8:32, He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up FOR US ALL, how shall he not give us all things.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15, For the love of God constraines us; because we thus judge, that if one died FOR ALL, then we are ALL dead. And he that died FOR ALL, which live should not live unto themselves.

2 Corinthians 5;19, God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto himself.

2 Corinthians 9:13, While by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection into the gospel of christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto ALL MEN.

Ephesians 3;9, And to make ALL MEN see what is the fellowship of the mystery from which from the beginning of the world was hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:4, Who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5-6, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL.

1 Timothy 4:10, For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN.

Titus 2:11, For the grace of God that brings salvation to ALL MEN.

Hebrews 2:9, But we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN.

Hebrews 10:10, But that we will have been sanctified through the offering of one body of Jesus Christ once FOR ALL.

James 1:15, If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to ALL MEN liberally.

1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

1 John 4:14, And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the WHOLE WORLD.

1 John 5:4, For whatsoever (whosoever) is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world OUR FAITH.

2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Visit: http://www.theapostlesdoctrine.com

 

[cygnusx1]

If every one is predestinated why did Jesus command his apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature? Mark 16:15. And then Jesus said in verse 16, "He that believes in me will be saved, and he that does not believe will be damned."

If everyone is predestinated why preach the Gospel at all?

Because God uses means to reach His goal , and so must we !

Because The Gospel is evidence that God is LOVE .

Because the light came into the world for several purposes , salvation of the elect , also EXPOSURE of the reprobate and their unbelieving hearts !

Because God sees it as fitting that through UNBELIEF man was cast out of His presence , so THROUGH faith man is brought into God's presence .......


shall I continue ?

 

[cygnusx1]

"Calvinism Refuted"


unfortunate title !

why?

because it isn't going to happen

 

[cygnusx1]

Robert Pate refuted .


"It is absurd to think that anything in us could have the least influence upon our election. Some say that God did foresee that such persons would believe, and therefore did choose them; so, they would make the business of salvation to depend upon something in us. Whereas God does not choose us FOR faith, but TO faith. "He hath chosen us, that we should be holy," (Ephesians 1:4), not because we would be holy, but that we might be holy." Thomas Watson



"Moreover, as God respects no persons, so He respects no conditions upon which He gives salvation to us." Thomas Goodwin



If election is of foreseen faith, then God would not have elected man, but rather man would have elected God. Jesus said, there is no one good, but one, that is God.

"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to thy cross I cling,"





The decrees of God were made according to his perfect knowledge and wisdom and they are unchangeable. We cannot say God is not fair, he is infinitely holy and without sin, the only fair thing is that we all should deserve the wrath of God.



Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ;

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Here we see Esau and Jacob both in their mother’s womb, and before they good do anything good or bad, they both received their destiny, Jacob was elected for salvation and Esau was rejected. One was blessed for eternal life and the other was rejected, a reprobate.



This shows that election is an act of grace and not of works. It was not because God foresaw Esau was wicked and Jacob was good, they were elected before they could do anything in their mother’s womb.



Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ;



As God he has a right that of a Potter has over clay. He is the sovereign creator of the clay. He can make one one vessel to honor and another to dishonor. Remember God is dealing with sinful creatures by punishing some and pardoning others, by punishing the sinners God's displeasure against sin is revealed and by pardoning others his mercy is revealed. If God wanted, he could have saved the whole human race, but the whole human race is not saved. Those who are saved receive the benefit of his grace. Those who are elected received the grace and mercy when they do not deserve. If mercy is deserved it is not mercy.



Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.



God called out of his grace Abraham, when Abraham was living in paganism. Why did God elect Abraham and not anyone else? Is God unfair? God elected a tiny nation called Israel, over other
nations, God took care of them like a father to a son and other nations did not have that blessing, Is God unfair? Moses had killed an Egyptian and and hid him in the sand, he was a murderer. God gave grace to Moses and not to Pharaoh, is God unfair? Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of God, killing the Christians but God instantly gave mercy and grace to him but not to Pilate although Pilate said, “Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him.”

Is God unfair that he elected a violent persecutor of the church over Pilate? Why did God elect you over your friends? . Did you deserve salvation? Are you better than others? Did you have more faith than others? If you had more faith than others, it was the murderess the tax collectors, the prostitutes who were saved in Jesus time had a lot of faith! Do you see my point? Election is of grace alone.



When did the reprobation begin? Is it when someone rejects Christ or before they were born? If God chose the elect before the foundation of the world then he also rejects, the reprobate before the foundation of the world. God’s providences are the manifestations of his decrees, what happens in time are only what God purposed in eternity.



Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. (Grace was given before time began. 2 Tim 1:9)

http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Reprobation.htm

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert Pate refuted .


"It is absurd to think that anything in us could have the least influence upon our election. Some say that God did foresee that such persons would believe, and therefore did choose them; so, they would make the business of salvation to depend upon something in us. Whereas God does not choose us FOR faith, but TO faith. "He hath chosen us, that we should be holy," (Ephesians 1:4), not because we would be holy, but that we might be holy." Thomas Watson



"Moreover, as God respects no persons, so He respects no conditions upon which He gives salvation to us." Thomas Goodwin



If election is of foreseen faith, then God would not have elected man, but rather man would have elected God. Jesus said, there is no one good, but one, that is God.

"Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to thy cross I cling,"





The decrees of God were made according to his perfect knowledge and wisdom and they are unchangeable. We cannot say God is not fair, he is infinitely holy and without sin, the only fair thing is that we all should deserve the wrath of God.



Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ;

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Here we see Esau and Jacob both in their mother’s womb, and before they good do anything good or bad, they both received their destiny, Jacob was elected for salvation and Esau was rejected. One was blessed for eternal life and the other was rejected, a reprobate.



This shows that election is an act of grace and not of works. It was not because God foresaw Esau was wicked and Jacob was good, they were elected before they could do anything in their mother’s womb.



Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ;



As God he has a right that of a Potter has over clay. He is the sovereign creator of the clay. He can make one one vessel to honor and another to dishonor. Remember God is dealing with sinful creatures by punishing some and pardoning others, by punishing the sinners God's displeasure against sin is revealed and by pardoning others his mercy is revealed. If God wanted, he could have saved the whole human race, but the whole human race is not saved. Those who are saved receive the benefit of his grace. Those who are elected received the grace and mercy when they do not deserve. If mercy is deserved it is not mercy.



Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.



God called out of his grace Abraham, when Abraham was living in paganism. Why did God elect Abraham and not anyone else? Is God unfair? God elected a tiny nation called Israel, over other
nations, God took care of them like a father to a son and other nations did not have that blessing, Is God unfair? Moses had killed an Egyptian and and hid him in the sand, he was a murderer. God gave grace to Moses and not to Pharaoh, is God unfair? Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of God, killing the Christians but God instantly gave mercy and grace to him but not to Pilate although Pilate said, “Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him.”

Is God unfair that he elected a violent persecutor of the church over Pilate? Why did God elect you over your friends? . Did you deserve salvation? Are you better than others? Did you have more faith than others? If you had more faith than others, it was the murderess the tax collectors, the prostitutes who were saved in Jesus time had a lot of faith! Do you see my point? Election is of grace alone.



When did the reprobation begin? Is it when someone rejects Christ or before they were born? If God chose the elect before the foundation of the world then he also rejects, the reprobate before the foundation of the world. God’s providences are the manifestations of his decrees, what happens in time are only what God purposed in eternity.



Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. (Grace was given before time began. 2 Tim 1:9)

http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Reprobation.htmhttp://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Reprobation.htm

The Gospel clearly refutes predestinationism.

Christ comes into the world as the new Adam and representative of humanity. Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so as by the obedience of one (Christ) many shall be MADE righteous."

In the Gospel Christ does for man what man cannot do for himself.

As man's representative he offers to God a life of perfect obedience. Jesus Christ is the epitome of God's holy Law. Not only does he fulfill it, he does away with it nailing it to his cross. Christians are free from the law. All that Christ does he does in our name and on our behalf. Those that are outside of Christ will be judged by this law and are under condemnation.

By his death on the cross he has put to death the whole Adamic race Romans 6:6. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live." Galatians 3:2.

In the Gospel God has dealt with the sins of humanity.

Christ having accomplished his mission of providing salvation for fallen man is now in heaven at the right hand of God. Victorious over sin, death and the devil.

There is no need for anyone to be saved by predestinationism (A select few) Salvation is available to all who want it.

Predestinationism is antifaith, antigrace, antigospel and antichrist. Christ has provided salvation by his life, death and resurrection to all who want it. To teach other wise is to teach against the justice and righteousness of God.

Who can trust in a God that by his own will sends countless humans into hell by his will for no reason. Therefore predestinationist are without faith.

 

[chestertonrules]

Because God uses means to reach His goal , and so must we !

That sounds like salvation by works. What do you mean, so must we. What if we don't?

Because The Gospel is evidence that God is LOVE .

The gospel is, which is why Calvinism is such a perversion of the gospel. Calvinism turns the gospel into Russian roulette.

Because the light came into the world for several purposes , salvation of the elect , also EXPOSURE of the reprobate and their unbelieving hearts !

Gibberish with no biblical foundation.

Because God sees it as fitting that through UNBELIEF man was cast out of His presence , so THROUGH faith man is brought into God's presence .......

Whose faith?

shall I continue ?

No. Repent.

 

[Hammster]

A text out of context leads to a pretext. If you take these verses out of context, you can come up with univeralism. You need to ask to whom was the apostle writing to, and for what reason. That clears up a lot.

 

[chestertonrules]

A text out of context leads to a pretext. If you take these verses out of context, you can come up with univeralism. You need to ask to whom was the apostle writing to, and for what reason. That clears up a lot.

I don't see that he was promoting universalism, he was just refuting Calvinism.

Quite effectively, I would say, not that it is difficult!

 

[Hammster]

Who can trust in a God that by his own will sends countless humans into hell by his will for no reason. Therefore predestinationist are without faith.

My rebuttal to this is to ask who would trust a God who, through the millinia of time, causes people to be born in places where they never were presented the gospel?

You state that you don't believe in predestination. However, if God iis omniscient, which He is, then He would know who would believe and who wouldn't. Which makes them predestined to accept or reject God. So why preach to them? The same reason the Calvinist does...because you don't know.

 

[chestertonrules]

My rebuttal to this is to ask who would trust a God who, through the millinia of time, causes people to be born in places where they never were presented the gospel?

quote]


We don't know their fate. We do know that to whom much is given, much is expected.

There is wiggle room enough for those who trust that God is indeed merciful:

1 Tim 4:10

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

 

[Hammster]

I notice you use Romans 8:32. Who is the 'us' Paul is referring to? And what do you do with the previous 5 verses?

 

[nobdysfool]

The Gospel clearly refutes predestinationism.

Christ comes into the world as the new Adam and representative of humanity. Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so as by the obedience of one (Christ) many shall be MADE righteous."

In the Gospel Christ does for man what man cannot do for himself.

As man's representative he offers to God a life of perfect obedience. Jesus Christ is the epitome of God's holy Law. Not only does he fulfill it, he does away with it nailing it to his cross. Christians are free from the law. All that Christ does he does in our name and on our behalf. Those that are outside of Christ will be judged by this law and are under condemnation.

By his death on the cross he has put to death the whole Adamic race Romans 6:6. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live." Galatians 3:2.

In the Gospel God has dealt with the sins of humanity.

Christ having accomplished his mission of providing salvation for fallen man is now in heaven at the right hand of God. Victorious over sin, death and the devil.

There is no need for anyone to be saved by predestinationism (A select few) Salvation is available to all who want it.

Predestinationism is antifaith, antigrace, antigospel and antichrist. Christ has provided salvation by his life, death and resurrection to all who want it. To teach other wise is to teach against the justice and righteousness of God.

Who can trust in a God that by his own will sends countless humans into hell by his will for no reason. Therefore predestinationist are without faith.

you have provided zero proof for your contention that Christ is the representative of the entire human race. Christ is not head of the human race, He is Head of the Church. He came and died for His own, which are those that the Fther has given Him, of whom He will lose none. That alone refutes your contention, because if Christ is head of humanity, and He will lose none, then you arrive at Universalism.

Your false doctrines are refuted, and your screed against Calvinism is phony, error-filled, and unscriptural, no matter how many scriptures you try to throw up. You err, not knowing the scriptures aright.

 

[nobdysfool]

I don't see that he was promoting universalism, he was just refuting Calvinism.

Quite effectively, I would say, not that it is difficult!

He didn't, and neither have you. Take your Papist false gospel and find somewhere else to peddle it. It will get no traction here.

 

[Benefactor]

My rebuttal to this is to ask who would trust a God who, through the millinia of time, causes people to be born in places where they never were presented the gospel?

You state that you don't believe in predestination. However, if God iis omniscient, which He is, then He would know who would believe and who wouldn't. Which makes them predestined to accept or reject God. So why preach to them? The same reason the Calvinist does...because you don't know.

One system forces man to be saved and man has no part in the process. He is picked, then regenerated, given the gift of saving faith, and then made to use it to obtain double regeneration. In this case this person does not have a choice, he can not resist God.

All systems that are not of the 5PC, with some exceptions, have man being required to believe first, then he is regenerated. God's foreknowledge of all who will believe can be stated as if they are already saved because God exist in the eternal now. None 5PC systems, with some exceptions, logically required evangelism, whereas, 5PC does not required it. 5PC in essence steals the evangelizing mandate to save face.

 

[chestertonrules]

you have provided zero proof for your contention that Christ is the representative of the entire human race. Christ is not head of the human race, He is Head of the Church. He came and died for His own, which are those that the Fther has given Him, of whom He will lose none. That alone refutes your contention, because if Christ is head of humanity, and He will lose none, then you arrive at Universalism.

Your false doctrines are refuted, and your screed against Calvinism is phony, error-filled, and unscriptural, no matter how many scriptures you try to throw up. You err, not knowing the scriptures aright.

Who to believe, Nobody's Fool, or the bible.....?

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18


For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

 

[Hammster]

One system forces man to be saved and man has no part in the process. He is picked, then regenerated, given the gift of saving faith, and then made to use it to obtain double regeneration. In this case this person does not have a choice, he can not resist God.



All systems that are not of the 5PC, with some exceptions, have man being required to believe first, then he is regenerated. God's foreknowledge of all who will believe can be stated as if they are already saved because God exist in the eternal now. None 5PC systems, with some exceptions, logically required evangelism, whereas, 5PC does not required it. 5PC in essence steals the evangelizing mandate to save face.

So you are saying that the only reason Calvinists witness is to save face, and not to be obedient?

 

[Benefactor]

So you are saying that the only reason Calvinists witness is to save face, and not to be obedient?

In principle; I do not impugn the heart felt love and devotion for Christ of those who sincerely hold to the 5PC view. It is my opinion that activity in the form of evangelism by 5PC Christians are disingenuous from the doctrinal side not the blessed hope they have in Christ. 5PC is a contradiction to the mandates of God to evangelize the world.

 

[Hammster]

In principle; I do not impugn the heart felt love and devotion for Christ of those who sincerely hold to the 5PC view. It is my opinion that activity in the form of evangelism by 5PC Christians are disingenuous from the doctrinal side not the blessed hope they have in Christ. 5PC is a contradiction to the mandates of God to evangelize the world.

Probably best to start a different thread as we are diverting from the OP.

 

[nobdysfool]

In principle; I do not impugn the heart felt love and devotion for Christ of those who sincerely hold to the 5PC view. It is my opinion that activity in the form of evangelism by 5PC Christians are disingenuous from the doctrinal side not the blessed hope they have in Christ. 5PC is a contradiction to the mandates of God to evangelize the world.

Sorry, but that is absolutely untrue. Evangelism Explosion is a Calvinist ministry (D. James Kennedy), and is one of the most successful and far-reaching evangelistic outreaches in the world. Gordon, you've been told this before, but you persist in misrepresenting Calvinist views, and Calvinists. Your differences with Calvinism and Calvinists are well known and documented. Please do not add to the misinformation as you have been doing.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't realize that Benefactor was Gordon.