Calvinism Refuted

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*
I have admitted repeatedly that I AM new to Calvinism. But I AM not new to scripture. It is because there are so many loopholes in the view you and others hold that I started believing in the doctrines of grace..........

Hey, how about that. I myself am new to Orthodoxy

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I've been off and on, has Archie given his biblical support for the view that repentance precedes regeneration?

 

[Hammster]

That would be an assumption on your part.







Inaccurate. Not 'always,' but at times, depending on schedules.







Hmmm. I made a summary statement about God reaching out to people. This you describe as 'refuting Calvinism'? Interesting.





If you are referring to my mention of providing Scriptures, will take care of that as able. Meanwhile, since you apparently do have time, please provide the Scriptures in support of your statement about faith.

I never said, nor implied, that you had intended the statement you made to be a refutation. Howeve, this is "Calvinism Refuted" so the burden is on you to do just that.

Also, it is odd that you spent an additional hour on here responding to posts AFTER you said you would provide Scripture "later".

So I will wait As will us all.

 

[student ad x]

I've been off and on, has Archie given his biblical support for the view that repentance precedes regeneration?

I've been re-reading some of the thread ... assertions IMO

 

[Hammster]

I've been off and on, has Archie given his biblical support for the view that repentance precedes regeneration?

lol

 

[JDS]

.



I have admitted repeatedly that I AM new to Calvinism. But I AM not new to scripture. It is because there are so many loopholes in the view you and others hold that I started believing in the doctrines of grace.

This is the most incredible admission I have ever heard on a forum such as this and it was totally unexpected.

 

[archierieus]

assertions IMO

That would be of interest to me. Please identify what you see as assertions. As for any positions taken by this student in regard to textual evidence, do you have or propose other evidence which would indicate those positions to be incorrect?

 

[archierieus]

I've been off and on, has Archie given his biblical support for the view that repentance precedes regeneration?

I have posted a number of Bible passages, dont recall which post, pretty recent.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Well, I was asking if you'd adduced Scripture to support your belief that repentance precedes regeneration.

If you have, could you refer me?

 

[archierieus]

Howeve, this is "Calvinism Refuted" so the burden is on you to do just that.

Any refutation of any position statement would be based on the evidence. The evidence is what counts, let the chips fall where they may.

Also, it is odd that you spent an additional hour on here responding to posts AFTER you said you would provide Scripture "later".

That might be an assumption on your part.

 

[archierieus]

Well, I was asking if you'd adduced Scripture to support your belief that repentance precedes regeneration.

If you have, could you refer me?

I have to run out the door right now, the post is within the last few pages. Included actually are two posts, one studying the Biblical teaching of regeneration as seen in Jn. 3 and Titus 3, and the other listing several passages linking repentance to conversion, baptism, regeneration, etc., including Romans 6:1 - 7

Dave

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

It seems clear that we are not going to get a refutation of Calvinism as a whole, but if Archie can establish that repentance precedes regeneration which I seem to recall being his claim, that would seem to go a long way toward damaging Calvinism.

It might even be a kind of silver bullet.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I have to run out the door right now, the post is within the last few pages. Included actually are two posts, one studying the Biblical teaching of regeneration as seen in Jn. 3 and Titus 3, and the other listing several passages linking repentance to conversion, baptism, regeneration, etc., including Romans 6:1 - 7

Dave

Yes, I saw that.

You appeared to be reading a presupposition into the text.

Also, that was a lot of "human reasoning"

 

[Hammster]

This is the most incredible admission I have ever heard on a forum such as this and it was totally unexpected.

And it is true. Once I started reading what the passages said, instead of getting them to fit my views, the bible made a lot more sense. I have said repeatedly that I once held views similar to yours and seated these same guys on here. So I am sympathetic to your position. And I havens illusions that I will changeover mind. But, I will defend my views with the same intensity that you defend yours. I just hope that you will take the time to do a little reading on Calvinism so that you can see what it is that we believe, and not the pop culture ideas that permeate these threads.

Check, I will even send you my copy of The God Who Chooses by RC Sproul, if you send me your address.

Thanks for your time,

Chris

 

[JDS]

Regeneration before faith? This is an incredible misunderstanding of a fundamental of the faith and there is nowhere to prove it, except as Calvinists prove all their points, WITHOUT SCRIPTURE. (one must read the whole thing you know).

The reason for the cross was regeneration because of sin that separated from God. It caused death! Take away the sin and reconciliation of the sinner with God takes place. (Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.)

The question is; Did he put away sin by that sacrifice. Some on here say no, he did not. But he did put it away and God said about the world in 2 Cor 5 (19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.)

Is there a single Calvinist out there who believes the "world" is the antecedent to the pronoun "them", and that world means "kosmos"? I doubt it!

If Adam sinned and he died as a result in the very day he sinned, but he did not die physically until 930 years later, are we looking at a spiritual death in the day he died? Yes!

And if sin is put away by one person on behalf of all people (Christ died for every man He 2:9) and God's wrath against all men was propitiated by his sacrifice (1 Jn 2:2), then dead men who have already been reconciled by his son can be regenerated by his Spirit, if his Spirit is his life. (Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.) The body is said to be dead and not the spirit because man does not have a spirit. He is soul and body and death is separation from God and not total inability as we have been told.

Time out for a point:

Just because a man can be regenerated does not mean he must be regenerated or even that he will regenerated because God says he must receive salvation as a free gift in the name of Jesus Christ by faith before God will justify him and forgive him. (Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name)

Back to the main point:

The Spirit of God "quickens" the body and by the fact he indwells him. (Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.) If the Spirit is life, he is also a gift, a free gift. (17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ).

So the Holy Ghost is not only synonymous with "life", he is also synonymous with "grace" and therefore with salvation.

So, the most important thing concerning the sacrificial death at Calvary is the fact that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the world's sins and sent his own Spirit to give life, as he gave him life (see 1 Pe 3:18 here), to as many as would receive him by believing on him. (Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.)

In Acts 2:38 and Acts 8:14-18 and acts 19 1-7, the Jews were required to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, be baptized in water in his name for the remission of their sins and have the approval of the apostles as conditions for receiving him (They had to lay hands on them). Later, when God sent him to the gentiles in Acts 10, they received him upon the lone condition of believing in his death, burial, and resurrection for their sins. This is true for everyone today. Since Acts 2, Jesus Christ is in our presence on earth in the person of the Holy Ghost and he is regenerating every sinner who will believe in Jesus Christ.

Now, since this is happening we have the foolowing comparison.

Adam - 1) son of God - 2) Trinity; body, soul and Spirit (life)

Sin

Death - Adam 1) No longer son of God - 2) Body and soul.


Jesus Christ (Last Adam) - 1) son of Man - 2) Trinity; body, soul, Spirit

Sin (Calvary)

Death - 1) Spiritual and physical 2) Separtion of soul, body, Spirit


Son of God

Regeneration at the tomb - Gloified body, soul, Spirit (Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead)

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you



Born in Adam = Son of man
Born in Christ = Son of God


Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (son of God) from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he (his son) might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What does it take to be a son of God and belong to God? The Spirit indwelling.

This is REgeneration!

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The Holy Spirit is the personification of his grace!

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I hope this helps some of you.

 

[drstevej]

And it is true. Once I started reading what the passages said, instead of getting them to fit my views, the bible made a lot more sense. I have said repeatedly that I once held views similar to yours and seated these same guys on here. So I am sympathetic to your position. And I havens illusions that I will changeover mind. But, I will defend my views with the same intensity that you defend yours. I just hope that you will take the time to do a little reading on Calvinism so that you can see what it is that we believe, and not the pop culture ideas that permeate these threads.

Check, I will even send you my copy of The God Who Chooses by RC Sproul, if you send me your address.

Thanks for your time,

Chris

Praise God. Very similar to my experience years ago.

 

[JDS]

And it is true. Once I started reading what the passages said, instead of getting them to fit my views, the bible made a lot more sense.

How does it make sense to teach that regeneration precedes salvation if you have no bible for it? This is mind blowing! The word regeneration is mentioned one time in the scriptures as it relates to the reestablishing of the relationship of man to God as sons and as a trinty. The only other time is in relation to the restoring of the rule of Man over the earth like it was before sin entered. You have taken a word and bent it into a false doctrine and you cannot defend it scripturally because it just is not true.

 

[Hammster]

How does it make sense to teach that regeneration precedes salvation if you have no bible for it? This is mind blowing! The word regeneration is mentioned one time in the scriptures as it relates to the reestablishing of the relationship of man to God as sons and as a trinty. The only other time is in relation to the restoring of the rule of Man over the earth like it was before sin entered. You have taken a word and bent it into a false doctrine and you cannot defend it scripturally because it just is not true.

Lets look at it this way: regeneration is just a fancy name for born again. And what did Jesus say must happen before you could see (understand, comprehend) the kingdoms of God? you must be born again.
Regeneration, or being born again, is the only way you can do anything as far as salvation is concerned. No belief, because you can't believe what you can't see. No repentance, because why would you? And no forgiveness, because no repentance.

There really isn't any way around it.

Not as detailed as I would like to give (I miss my laptop), but I think sufficient for now.

 

[drstevej]

How does it make sense to teach that regeneration precedes salvation if you have no bible for it? This is mind blowing! The word regeneration is mentioned one time in the scriptures as it relates to the reestablishing of the relationship of man to God as sons and as a trinty. The only other time is in relation to the restoring of the rule of Man over the earth like it was before sin entered. You have taken a word and bent it into a false doctrine and you cannot defend it scripturally because it just is not true.

regeneration logically precedes faith and justification. Salvation is a broarer term encompassing all aspects.

We have cited verses and you just keep repeating yourself and telling us what we believe inaccurately.

JDS I am not sure you are willing to genuinely listen to what we are saying.

 

[archierieus]

Lets look at it this way: regeneration is just a fancy name for born again.

Agreed. This is an important point.

And what did Jesus say must happen before you could see (understand, comprehend) the kingdoms of God? you must be born again.

He said you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

Regeneration, or being born again, is the only way you can do anything as far as salvation is concerned. No belief, because you can't believe what you can't see. No repentance, because why would you? And no forgiveness, because no repentance.

Sounds like you have misunderstood or misconstrued 'born again.'