Calvinism Refuted

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

[/i]

How many did Jesus say He would draw to Himself?

The Church.

According to Jesus, to how many is it granted to come to Jesus, and on what terms?

Many, all kinds.

This pertains to the choice of Jacob instead of Esau to receive the birthright. It so states.

As heads of the covenant which finds its terminus in the death and resurrection of Christ and the eschatological promise.

According to THIS SCRIPTURE, to how many is the calling offered?

To the Church.

 

[archierieus]

Regeneration precedes faith or repentance:

Eph. 2:1-6 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Here is a good example of a "due and necessary inference"

Notice that before making us alive in Christ we are children of wrath and dead in trespasses and sins.

'made us alive--by grace you have been saved through faith'

Very definitely the position Benefactor, myself, and many, many other Christians understand.

So let me just ask, does it not seem clear to you that children of wrath and people dead in trespasses and sins will not repent?

The passage you quoted does not address that question.

Repentance depends logically upon regeneration for the reason that prior to regeneration the individual is a child of wrath, at enmity with God, disinclined to reconciliation, and dead in trespasses and sins.

The appeal to logic, or at least the student's idea of logic. Very typical of what I have seen of Calvinist argumentation and support. Ideas about logic as at the core of the belief system, with cherry-picked Scriptures claimed to support the logic.

The burden of proof would seem to be on you to show that regeneration follows repentance.

Let's see what Scripture says about that. Will get to that later, gotta head out the door in a few. Benefactor, can you take care of this?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by archierieus

According to THIS SCRIPTURE, to how many is the calling offered?
​

To the Church.

Which one is that?

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=51212789&postcount=100

 

[archierieus]

The Church.

Scripture, please. The Church, and no one else?

Many, all kinds.

Scripture?

As heads of the covenant which finds its terminus in the death and resurrection of Christ and the eschatological promise.

Scripture, please.

To the Church.

Scripture?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

'made us alive--by grace you have been saved through faith'

Very definitely the position Benefactor, myself, and many, many other Christians understand.

Yes, this is a parenthesis. It does not indicate the sequence you would like though.

The passage you quoted does not address that question.

It infers the answer to the question you gave.

The appeal to logic, or at least the student's idea of logic. Very typical of what I have seen of Calvinist argumentation and support. Ideas about logic as at the core of the belief system, with cherry-picked Scriptures claimed to support the logic.

Yes, we use our minds. You do too. Could you please stop this Leibowitzian anti-intellectual triumphalism?

Let's see what Scripture says about that. Will get to that later, gotta head out the door in a few. Benefactor, can you take care of this?

I'll look forward to this.

Make sure you don't use any reason!

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Scripture, please. The Church, and no one else?




Scripture?





Scripture, please.




Scripture?

Are you a universalist? And do you disagree that the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is continued and completed in Christ?

 

[archierieus]

Yes, this is a parenthesis.

Please show Scripturally that it is a 'parenthesis.'

It does not indicate the sequence you would like though.

Show that from the passage.

It infers the answer to the question you gave.

Sound exegesis, careful scholarship, leaves as little as possible to inference. There is no such inference in the passage. If you say there is, please quote the words from the passage, and show why they support your inference.

Yes, we use our minds. You do too. Could you please stop this Leibowitzian anti-intellectual triumphalism?

Please keep on topic and avoid personal attacks. Please provide Scripture to support your position.

 

[archierieus]

Are you a universalist? And do you disagree that the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is continued and completed in Christ?

Gotta head out the door right now, will get back to this later.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Please show Scripturally that it is a 'parenthesis.'



Show that from the passage.




Sound exegesis, careful scholarship, leaves as little as possible to inference. There is no such inference in the passage. If you say there is, please quote the words from the passage, and show why they support your inference.



Please keep on topic and avoid personal attacks. Please provide Scripture to support your position.

I believe I have done enough. Your constant falling back to demanding further and more scriptural references is pusillanimous and clearly a dodge.

This game can be played forever. I have been on the defensive long enough.

You claim that repentance precedes regeneration.

Prove it, and we'll see how you like being told that your efforts are inadequate.

As for careful exegesis and sound scholarship. I gave you that and you rejected it as the opinions of men.

I am sure you will understand if I reject everything you bring to the discussion under the same rubric and when you bring Scripture that I will continue to ask for more, and more, and more.

Clearly, you are not really interested in talking about this, only in setting 'em up and knocking 'em down.

 

[Robert Pate]

Regeneration precedes faith or repentance:

Eph. 2:1-6 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Here is a good example of a "due and necessary inference"

Notice that before making us alive in Christ we are children of wrath and dead in trespasses and sins.

The inference is clear but I dare not draw it for you, I might be accused of soiling the clear Word of God with the "opinions of men".

So let me just ask, does it not seem clear to you that children of wrath and people dead in trespasses and sins will not repent?

But again, we are not talking about a temporal sequence here. Repentance depends logically upon regeneration for the reason that prior to regeneration the individual is a child of wrath, at enmity with God, disinclined to reconciliation, and dead in trespasses and sins.

The burden of proof would seem to be on you to show that regeneration follows repentance.

Nothing happens in a believers life until he receives the first fruits of the Spirit. The condition for recieving the Holy Spirit is perfect obedience to God's law. Christ has offered this to God in our name and on our behalf.

Repentance starts at salvation when the believer firsts trust in Christ as his savior, but is on going through out the believers life.

There cannot be regeneration without the work of the Holy Spirit. There is not really any difference between regeneration and repentance it is all a work of the Spirit in the believers life.

There are two aspects to salvation.
1. God's work for us in Jesus Christ.
2. God's work in us by the Holy Spirit.

These are two separate works that should never be confused.

 

[Benefactor]

Absolutely.



Agreed.

True, I am eager to see if I am wrong. I have been looking at this single aspect for a long time. I am open to the truth.

I would like to see exactly where and how Calvinism backs up regeneration as the necessary prerequisite to the process of salvation.

This statement is not made with disrespect or ill will but of great interest.

I eagerly wait for someone to shed some light on this matter.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

True, I am eager to see if I am wrong. I have been looking at this single aspect for a long time. I am open to the truth.

I would like to see exactly where and how Calvinism backs up regeneration as the necessary prerequisite to the process of salvation.

This statement is not made with disrespect or ill will but of great interest.

I eagerly wait for someone to shed some light on this matter.

It is a clear inference from the passage I gave earlier. If you cannot or will not see it, I don't know what else to say.

Now it's your turn to prove that repentance necessarily precedes regeneration.

 

[Benefactor]

Regeneration precedes faith or repentance:

Eph. 2:1-6 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Here is a good example of a "due and necessary inference"

Notice that before making us alive in Christ we are children of wrath and dead in trespasses and sins.

The inference is clear but I dare not draw it for you, I might be accused of soiling the clear Word of God with the "opinions of men".

So let me just ask, does it not seem clear to you that children of wrath and people dead in trespasses and sins will not repent?

But again, we are not talking about a temporal sequence here. Repentance depends logically upon regeneration for the reason that prior to regeneration the individual is a child of wrath, at enmity with God, disinclined to reconciliation, and dead in trespasses and sins.

The burden of proof would seem to be on you to show that regeneration follows repentance.

Thanks for that answer. I do appreciate your willingness to acknowledge it as an inference. Should I assume at this point that this is the only verse that is viewed by Calvinism as supporting it position of regeneration before repentance?

I may not get to respond in a bit as we are off to our daughters and if occasion affords there I will indulge once again in this educational process.

 

[Benefactor]

It is a clear inference from the passage I gave earlier. If you cannot or will not see it, I don't know what else to say.

Now it's your turn to prove that repentance necessarily precedes regeneration.

You read my mind - thanks

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Bulstrode Whitelock It is a clear inference from the passage I gave earlier. If you cannot or will not see it, I don't know what else to say.

Now it's your turn to prove that repentance necessarily precedes regeneration.

Doesn't repenting mean the same as reforming also?

Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the Time and has-neared the Kingdom of the God.
Be ye reforming/repenting!/metanoeite <3340> (5720) and be ye believing!/pisteuete <4100> (5720) in the Good-Message. [Luke 21:31/Reve 16:11]

Revelation 16:11 And they blaspheme the God of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them.
And not they repent/reform/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the works of them.

 

[student ad x]

you will soon discover only some are allowed to use logic here , the rest will be treated as gnostics and heretics .... you will find nothing but inconsistency contradiction and confusion from those who love to put others in their place .....

lol

Come now what are we doing here if not unpacking Scripture and using human words and human reason to form an intelligible argument?

What is the difference between what Turretin did in the link I gave and what you do every day here?

Yeah, I asked that, too. I guess if you just sum up what someone else said, that's okay. BUT DON'T QUOTE THEM.

Evidently we must reinvent the wheel every time we approach a doctrinal locus.

It is entirely inadequate to cite the example of someone who has already done the work and reference their labors.

But even so, I find the very idea that these are "man's ideas" and therefore somehow disqualified repugnant.

Theology is faith seeking understanding. It is a dialogue with revelation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by cygnusx1 you will soon discover only some are allowed to use logic here , the rest will be treated as gnostics and heretics .... you will find nothing but inconsistency contradiction and confusion from those who love to put others in their place .....

That is how the atheist debate us

 

[heymikey80]

So far all I can find is one must believe to be regenerated

Agreed.

Scripture?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Scripture?

If I had a nickel for everytime I saw that on this thread

 

[Benefactor]

Scripture?

Once I give you some scripture are you going to interpret it as a faithful amillennialist?

It will be later today we are off to daughters, I hate that drive, but when you live with a house for of ladies you really have to mind your Ps and Qs. Some of you may know from whence I speak.

You can live with them and you don't want to live without them.

I should score some point on that one.

And you thought I was going to say something different