Calvinism Refuted

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Very honestly, I have studied that passage and the Genesis account repeatedly, and do not find a reference to either salvation or rejection of God. I do see it pertaining to which son would receive the birthright and continue the line of the patriarchs.

I do believe in taking each verse or passage as it reads, at face value.

Dave

But this is the whole point.

Our salvation in Christ is the terminus of the all the covenants.

Yes, Esau was rejected and Jacob was chosen to bear the blessing of the covenant God had made with His father Abraham. This is the same covenant He confirmed with Isaac, the child of the free woman Sarah rather than the child of the slave woman Hagar.

And Jacob was called Israel and had twelve sons and the covenant continued in his seed down to our own day when the covenant is in Christ's blood.

And that covenant is the substance and foundation of our salvation.

So our salvation is based in the choice of God.

That this choice was of Jacob (And Isaac, and Abraham, and Moses and Seth etc.) is clear.

The New testament extends this covenantal choice to us who are in Christ as well since He is "the man of God's own choosing" as Luther put it; i.e. the covenant head, The Elect in Whom we are chosen.

 

[archierieus]

Did YHWH know Esau would give up his birthright?

From other Scriptures, we can safely say that He did. God knows the future, the end from the beginning.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Hope you don't mind if I chime in here. Does the Bible teach that we have free will? That would be an interesting study in itself. Certainly on point to the topic of this thread. But please, Scripture, rather than serving opinions back and forth lol.

We are all free to choose according to our nature.

A dog cannot choose to be a cat, nor a sinner to be holy.

Every creature chooses freely according to his nature.

 

[Hammster]

Benefactor,



What is your issue with God violating our so-called free will? And where do you find in the Bible that God can't violate it?

Could God violate our limited free will - NO he can't because it is his plan.



We are told that God desires the salvation of all mankind that is a fact



If God violates this desire He forfeits his Holiness. That is not going to happen.



So what do we do? We accept the fact that God is Holy and will be true to His holiness.



In doing so with respect to His desire as He has made know to us which then is His purpose in His plan then the only way to honor it is that man must be free to accept or reject God and that is what is taking place and has been form Adam to now and will be until the close of the 1K kingdom.[/QUOTE]



But God can violate our free will if He knows we are destined for Hell?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

From other Scriptures, we can safely say that He did. God knows the future, the end from the beginning.

Did Esau have free will to either eat and give up his birthright or not to?

 

[Benefactor]

Could God violate our limited free will - NO he can't because it is his plan.



We are told that God desires the salvation of all mankind that is a fact



If God violates this desire He forfeits his Holiness. That is not going to happen.



So what do we do? We accept the fact that God is Holy and will be true to His holiness.



In doing so with respect to His desire as He has made know to us which then is His purpose in His plan then the only way to honor it is that man must be free to accept or reject God and that is what is taking place and has been form Adam to now and will be until the close of the 1K kingdom.

But God can violate our free will if He knows we are destined for Hell?[/quote]

Not in my theology. That is impossible from the CURED positoin.

 

[archierieus]

We are all free to choose according to our nature.

A dog cannot choose to be a cat, nor a sinner to be holy.

Every creature chooses freely according to his nature.

Can we choose to ask God to change our nature? Steps as I understand the process:

1) Awareness of a better way;
2) Desire for a better way;
3) Repentance;
4) Acceptance of Christ and Born Again.

We cannot be born again until we have died to the old life. That entails repentance, and repentance follows awareness, desire and choice. Awareness can come through a variety of channels. Desire is awakened by God. Repentance is in response to the work of the Holy Spirit, and involves a choice by the individual. Acceptance is accomplished throuh the influence of the Spirit, but requires a choice. Dying to self involves a decision on the part of the individuual. The Birth is accomplished by God.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

Did Esau have free will to either eat and give up his birthright or not to?

That we can safely assume, because of the nature of things.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Can we choose to ask God to change our nature? Steps as I understand the process:

1) Awareness of a better way;
2) Desire for a better way;
3) Repentance;
4) Acceptance of Christ and Born Again.

We cannot be born again until we have died to the old life. That entails repentance, and repentance follows awareness, desire and choice. Awareness can come through a variety of channels. Desire is awakened by God. Repentance is in response to the work of the Holy Spirit, and involves a choice by the individual. Acceptance is accomplished throuh the influence of the Spirit, but requires a choice. Dying to self involves a decision on the part of the individuual. The Birth is accomplished by God.

Dave

The fallen nature has no desire to choose differently than it does because it is not in its nature to choose differently than it does.

Dogs cannot only not choose to be cats, they don't want to. They're dogs.

The "chooser" needs to be replaced.

 

[archierieus]

The fallen nature has no desire to choose differently than it does because it is not in its nature to choose differently than it does.

Dogs cannot only not choose to be cats, they don't want to. They're dogs.

What is there to prevent God from influencing anyone to desire a change for the better?

The "chooser" needs to be replaced.

Meaning???

 

[Hammster]

But God can violate our free will if He knows we are destined for Hell?

Not in my theology. That is impossible from the CURED positoin.[/QUOTE]



Then my mistake because I thought that you were implying that God could harden Pharaoh's heart because He knew that Pharaoh would reject Him anyway.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ now unsubscribes.......

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

What is there to prevent God from influencing anyone to desire a change for the better?

Well, this is what we're talking about when we talk about the effectual call.

Meaning???

We need a new heart.

 

[archierieus]

Well, this is what we're talking about when we talk about the effectual call.

I took a brief look at it, and noticed that it appears to be a position paper or sermon. Could you please cite the Bible references on point? I prefer Sola Scriptura.

We need a new heart.

That occurs after repentance and dying to the old life. The new heart is part of the born again experience.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Here is an excellent treatment which contains several bible passages.

 

[Hammster]

Benefactor,



What is your issue with God violating our so-called free will? And where do you find in the Bible that God can't violate it?

Could God violate our limited free will - NO he can't because it is his plan.



We are told that God desires the salvation of all mankind that is a fact



If God violates this desire He forfeits his Holiness. That is not going to happen.



So what do we do? We accept the fact that God is Holy and will be true to His holiness.



In doing so with respect to His desire as He has made know to us which then is His purpose in His plan then the only way to honor it is that man must be free to accept or reject God and that is what is taking place and has been form Adam to now and will be until the close of the 1K kingdom.[/QUOTE]



So God desires all men to be saved. That is your position, because after all, all means all. So let's take a look at that.

1 Corinthians 10:23 ALL things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. (Try that with the cops)

1 Corinthians 15;22 For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive. (I wonder what Pharaoh, Hitler, Saddam, etc. think about that)

1 Peter1:24 All flesh is like grass... (Jesus must be getting pretty old by now)

Luke 13:17 As He said these things ALL His adversaries were put to shame and ALL the people rejoiced at all the glorious things done by Him. (So every adversary was put to shame AND rejoiced. And they did this with every person on the planet then and now. )

Mark 1:5 And ALL the country of Judea and ALL Jerusalem were going out to see him. (John the Baptist sure could draw a crowd)

Are you sure you want to stick with your all always means all tactic?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

That occurs after repentance and dying to the old life. The new heart is part of the born again experience.

I do not believe that repentance precedes regeneration.

A person cannot repent unless he has the will to do so and he cannot have the will to do so without having first been given a new heart.

This is what the Bible means when we are told that we must be born again and that without this that the heart is darkened and at enmity with God.

Enmity is not a condition of neutrality nor one that admits of any possibility of suasion apart from a radical change of will.

 

[archierieus]

Here is an excellent treatment which contains several bible passages.

Still has man's ideas mingled with the Scripture. A position paper with particular Scriptures chosen to support. Honestly, this is something I have noticed frrequently about Calvinist advocates. Please, just the Scriptures, without man's opinions.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Still has man's ideas mingled with the Scripture. A position paper with particular Scriptures chosen to support. Honestly, this is something I have noticed frrequently about Calvinist advocates. Please, just the Scriptures, without man's opinions.

lol

Come now what are we doing here if not unpacking Scripture and using human words and human reason to form an intelligible argument?

What is the difference between what Turretin did in the link I gave and what you do every day here?

 

[Hammster]

lol



Come now what are we doing here if not unpacking Scripture and using human words and human reason to form an intelligible argument?



What is the difference between what Turretin did in the link I gave and what you do every day here?

Yeah, I asked that, too. I guess if you just sum up what someone else said, that's okay. BUT DON'T QUOTE THEM.