Calvinism Refuted

[pdudgeon]

In scripture we do not read that the foreknowledge of God is of our works or choice.. This has been added. God chooses to know and recognise people not according to their works but according to His choice. For His purpose. It is a knowing of the person. Not of their works this is why Scripture shows us we are saved by grace through Faith and not of works lest any man can boast.. no man can boast it was their free will choice that they were saved. For man cannot do one thing to save themselves for salvation is not of man but of the Lord..

you might want to read Psalm 139 sometime. it is a knowing of the person and of their works, not one or the other.

 

[Hammster]

you might want to read Psalm 139 sometime. it is a knowing of the person and of their works, not one or the other.

True dat. However, in the context of the passage MamaZ quoted, it isn't our actions or decisions (which are actions) that God looks at when He decided who would be the elect. He had a purpose to do something.

This is not to say that God doesn't know what we will do or say or think. He is omniscient. But it isn't based on our actions that He decided to save us. (I can't speak for anyone else, but good thing for me.)

 

[Hismessenger]

What happened with Esau and Jacob had nothing what soever to do with foreknowledge but rather more to do with the word of God. He said that it would be a certain way and thus it had to be so by His word. It can not come back void. Everything that happened was to the fulfillment of what God had spoken to be. It was predetermined by God that the older would serve the younger. But if you really hear what the spirit was saying, it is saying that the first Adam would serve the second Adam. It isn't about what occurred in the natural but in the spirit. The word of God can never be made to falter or made a lie. That is the gist of this word.

hismessenger

 

[cygnusx1]

The goal is to reduce as far as possible man's opinions and let the Scriptures speak. Whether it is a link posted, or someone's opinions posted, opinion is opinion, but Scripture is Scripture.

then let us just quote scripture at each other , and leave it at that .... no ? I didn't think so .

 

[cygnusx1]

well spotted , it is clear what is going on here ... he who sets the boundaries has advantage and it's much easier to throw rocks from an "elevated" position .... I had Months of un-even debate with RG on this forum then the penny dropped , he kept using a Joker , his church's infallibility ... it's clear why.

 

[MamaZ]

you might want to read Psalm 139 sometime. it is a knowing of the person and of their works, not one or the other.

He knows their works because He knows him. For even before he was formed in the womb his days were ordained by God. Predestined. Just as we see in the NT.

 

[Hammster]

The problem we have right now is that we want to debate the chicken/egg issue concerning faith and regeneration. But if one doesn't understand that we are dead in sin, then the rest will not make sense.

 

[cygnusx1]

Originally Posted by archierieus

Originally Posted by Benefactor

So far all I can find is one must believe to be regenerated
​

Agreed.​

Scripture?

Originally Posted by heymikey80

Scripture?
​

If I had a nickel for everytime I saw that on this thread

the funny thing is that scripture isn't going to be enough .... and all the guys here know scripture anyway (or should do) so the constant demand , and Mike's mimic is THE circular argument here. It's like the Coleridge inspired Xanadu ... an endless cycle.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

It's what is known as the "John Jacob Jingleheimerschmidt Method"

 

[student ad x]

well spotted , it is clear what is going on here ... he who sets the boundaries has advantage and it's much easier to throw rocks from an "elevated" position ....

All's I can say is it's difficult to follow a discussion attentively, remain humble and be willing to participate when the opportunities are present, when the discussion is based on things other than the foundations of the argument.
monergism =

= synergists

 

[MamaZ]

The goal is to reduce as far as possible man's opinions and let the Scriptures speak. Whether it is a link posted, or someone's opinions posted, opinion is opinion, but Scripture is Scripture.

But yet you take human exiwhatever you call it and call this scripture? Take the scripturea and paralell scripture with scripture and allow scripture to be the enterpreter of scriptures insead of your what ever it is you call it.. Sorry can't remember the name..

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

And yet, still, not a refutation in sight...

 

[MamaZ]

No, Archie, no, I can't. Or rather, I could, but you've demonstrated that, like JDS, you're only interested in dealing with us on your terms. [/quote[

The terms I am interested in dealing with anyone on are Sola Scriptura.



Scripture please. So far, this is only a statement of opinion, unsupported by Scripture. And it is different from what I have found in Scripture. But let's see the Scriptural support.



Once again, Scripture please.

Dead men cannot repent.. They are dead.. Only God has the power to raise dead men from the dead unto life..

 

[cygnusx1]

Still has man's ideas mingled with the Scripture. A position paper with particular Scriptures chosen to support. Honestly, this is something I have noticed frrequently about Calvinist advocates. Please, just the Scriptures, without man's opinions.

what , that Calvinist's tend to use scripture to support there every step ?


Can't think of a better proof .

I remember speaking to an American guy on the phone who ran a live debate between Calvinist and none Calvinists (Arminians _) he didn't agree with the Calvinists but he did say the Calvinists had far FAR MORE scriptures on their side .. interesting impartial observation , I thought .

 

[cygnusx1]

LLOJ pops in.......

I do not believe in a future "rapture"

LLOJ pops back out.......

I'll remind you of that on take off!!!

 

[Hammster]

It's what is known as the "John Jacob Jingleheimerschmidt Method"

lol. His name is my name,too

 

[cygnusx1]

Which one is that?

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=51212789&postcount=100

the Celtic one of course

 

[cygnusx1]

Are you a universalist? And do you disagree that the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is continued and completed in Christ?

I have visted several Universalist sites , they liberally quote scripture ... all the "arminian flavoured" ones !

I have a book on Universalism in a debate series , the Calvinist (Daniel Strange) responds with no quarter.

 

[cygnusx1]

someone once asked me ,

"How many times did you all repleatedly return to the same alter to rededicate your life? Why? "

to which i replied ;


​

several times !

why ? because it was a watered down Arminian Gospel ; which left me having faith in faith , and boy my faith wavered , it took time for me to reject Arminian thinking and realise if preachers were to preach as Christ preached few would desire to repent , todays soul winners are like David looking at the numbers , not the content of what they preach.

There is no stable place for the soul except in renouncing self-righteousness and looking unto Christ for everything , even if our concience bears witness against us , we still have Christ on our side.

 

[Benefactor]

It is a clear inference from the passage I gave earlier. If you cannot or will not see it, I don't know what else to say.

Now it's your turn to prove that repentance necessarily precedes regeneration.

Acts 2:38 (NIV) Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
2 Corinthians 7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Repentance first - Forgiveness of sin follows

Acts 20:21 have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Repentance first - Faith next

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forfearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Just speaks of Repentance


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Repentance first not perish second

Mark 1:4 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

Repentance first Forgiveness next for Mark and Luke

Luke 5:32 And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins