Calvinism Refuted

[MamaZ]

We see that those who are Christ sheep hear His voice and WILL follow Him. But we do not see those who are not HIS sheep even hear his voice..

 

[Tzaousios]

Well it is the will part.. Will they believe if Not drawn or chosen by God to do So? Natural mens wills are so far from Gods will that now a days men don't believe there is sin.. Just bad choices.,.

MamaZ, I would like to draw your attention to my response in #814

 

[JDS]

JDS, that's not a fair representation of what I said.

Well, I don't mean misrepresent you but that is what I gleaned from your comments. How did I go astray?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

For the record, here is what I did say in my earlier conversation with JDS:

post 707

You have probably heard Total Depravity recast as Total Inability and stopped listening there.

The inability does not refer to belief but to merit. We are totally incapable of meriting the grace of God.

I guess the point I would make is that if you are going to insist upon incapability, would refer you to the cause of this incapability and it lies in unwillingness. If they cannot be saved it is because they will not believe and they will not believe because they are at enmity with God and their hearts are darkened.

Why insist on the inability to be saved when the really central point is that they will not believe. They will not believe because they are dead in trespasses and sins, their foolish hearts are darkened and they are at enmity with God. They do not want what God wants, they do not want God, they do not want to believe, they do not want to be saved.

This is the heart of the issue. You're missing the forest for the trees.

and

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=51189468&postcount=717

Post 717

I am quite familiar with the doctrines of Grace.

I too have often made use of the corpse analogy and it is a good and useful one. It is straight out of Scripture in fact but I have come to the conclusion that many Calvinists misuse it when they imply by it that the unregenerate have no will.

Fortunately this is a very rare construction usually employed only by the very immature.

In the Bible the unregenerate are spoken of as having been dead in contradistinction to the new life they have in Christ. There is no mention of election "quickening" them nor can there be since election does not take place at the moment they believe but long before.

Total Depravity or Total Inability do not mean that the unregenerate are incapable of volition and I really have never heard anyone say that they do. Could you cite an example?

What they mean is that man, in the unregenerate state is sinful and unclean, at enmity with God and not capable of meriting the favor of God without which no one can be happy or have eternal life. By correspondence it means that the faculty of willing in them is perverted and darkened, but it certainly does not mean that they are incapable of it.

If someone in this thread has said that the unregenerate cannot will anything I hope you will not assume that all Calvinists agree.

What we say instead is that the will of contingent agents is always constrained and limited by the nature of the willing agent. Where that nature is depraved and unregenerate the will still wills but what it wills is wrong.

If I'm heterodox on this I'd like to know how.

 

[archierieus]

Well, currently, the discussion seems to have faltered a bit.

Maybe you can get us back on track.

I would have difficulty point to a passage of Scripture which supports my belief since I believe the whole Bible does so.

Is there a particular passage that you believe we abuse?

I would not say 'abuse,' but one which can be misconstrued. Let's start with one recently discussed on this thread. Here is the post, re-posting here. Would welcome response:

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they ... John 12 : 1-50

Reference is to Isaiah, ch. 6:9, 10. Note the Septuagint:

6:9 και ειπεν πορευθητι και ειπον τω λαω τουτω ακοη ακουσετε και ου μη συνητε και βλεποντες βλεψετε και ου μη ιδητε

6:10 επαχυνθη γαρ η καρδια του λαου τουτου και τοις ωσιν αυτων βαρεως ηκουσαν και τους οφθαλμους αυτων εκαμμυσαν μηποτε ιδωσιν τοις οφθαλμοις και τοις ωσιν ακουσωσιν και τη καρδια συνωσιν και επιστρεψωσιν και ιασομαι αυτους

English translation:

9 Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. 10 For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Now compare the John cite of Isaiah 6:9, 10:

διὰ τοῦτο οὐκ ἠδύναντο πιστεύειν, ὅτι πάλιν εἶπεν Ἠσαΐας, Τετύφλωκεν αὐτῶν τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς καὶ ἐπώρωσεν αὐτῶν τὴν καρδίαν, ἵνα μὴ ἴδωσιν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς καὶ νοήσωσιν τῇ καρδίᾳ καὶ στραφῶσιν, καὶ ἰάσομαι αὐτούς.

Note the verb in v. 39, which is imperfect middle. I.e., it comes from within themselves, they initiate the action and participate in the results(middle voice) That is very consistent with the Septuagint reading as noted above. God sent light, they hated the light, and the more light sent to them, the more they rejected it. This was demonstrated in Christ's ministry. John records how Jesus worked miracle after miracle, made appeal after appeal, culminating in the evidence of Lazarus' resurrection. But they refused to believe, as Jesus said in Jn. 9, they said they see but refused to accept the evidence, so their blindness remains.
[/quote]

Now, Mr. Whitelock, I would welcome your comments re the textual and grammatical issues here. And I am confident that you will shun rhetoric and diatribes lol

 

[MamaZ]

drsteve, Hammster, cygnusx1, do any of you have comments on the questions I have raised?



I am not so sure that election is a prevenient grace when observed by finite, temporalized humans. The regenerate elect before conversion are dead in sin just as much as the unregenerate non-elect.

Their predestined conversion has not taken place until they are regenerated. Just because they have seen the spiritual good and recognized it does not mean they have at that moment been regenerated.

Also, pre-conversion, the elect's motivation is not necessarily any different than the unregenerate non-elect's motivation. Then, how are either categories of people different in respect to what they desire and will?



But now you are admitting that the unregenerate non-elect can see and recognize the spiritual good for what it is. That implies they have done so of their own will and could possibly even desire it. How do you resolve this?

That God is calling them.. Drawing them.. I said that they could see a difference in a born again Christian not that they might understand it..

 

[MamaZ]

I have been accused of being drunk many times because of the Joy of the Lord.. I have been accused of much more.. Like I am crazy and nuts and a Jesus freak and one of those and the list goes on..

 

[student ad x]

Although I'm having to read 20 pgs to catch up to y'all...

Well, let me ask the others here:
Am I totally recasting Calvinism and being inaccurate in my presentation? Am I changing things?

No you are not.

Why insist on the inability to be saved when the really central point is that they will not believe. They will not believe because they are dead in trespasses and sins, their foolish hearts are darkened and they are at enmity with God. They do not want what God wants, they do not want God, they do not want to believe, they do not want to be saved.
This is the heart of the issue. You're missing the forest for the trees.

Yes he is

 

[JDS]

Well it is the will part.. Will they believe if Not drawn or chosen by God to do So? Natural mens wills are so far from Gods will that now a days men don't believe there is sin.. Just bad choices.,.

It is the word of God that pricks the conscience and it is the will of man that responds, positively or negatively. The word of God gives fallen men all the information he needs to be reconciled to God, separation being confirmed by the conscience, and the decision man makes seals his destiny. If he believes God, he is predestined to a state of Glory. If he does not believe or does nothing, he is already condemned to the Lake of Fire, a place of eternal separation. The will is the determining factor!

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

If the reprobate is unable to believe it needs to be understood that this is not because God just arbitrarily made them unable to believe.

They are unable to believe because they won't.

See, the main thing here is a will that is not merely defective but in open or not so open rebellion.

God didn't make Adam sin and He doesn't make us sin, we sin because it's in our nature to sin. It's how we roll. We want to sin.

But also, it doesn't surprise God and it does not happen outside of His meticulous providence.

When you insist on saying that the non-elect cannot believe and that that is what we believe, I feel compelled to point all this out; that there is more to it than just this.

That's all.

 

[Tzaousios]

sure , election is by God's unmerited Grace ... and it is before other gifts .. so i would have to say yes , because with election comes Christ , all blessings and graces are in Him and the elect have always been in Christ.

I agree that actual election is by God's unmerited grace. It is the means by which the elect are saved through Christ.

However, it is not the same thing as the "prevenient grace" that Calvinists sometimes speak of. It seems that in the above responses it was implied that both the unregenerate elect and unregenerate non-elect have the ability to recognize the spiritual good.

Logically, it would follow that both have the ability to desire the spiritual good. Next, based on their desire, they can will certain things, and then at least cry out for mercy to God. Are both, or just the unregenerate elect, able to become cognizant of spiritual good, and then act on that knowledge and ask for mercy and forgiveness?

it doesn't mean that they haven't been regenerated , the timing is mysterious the order is revealed.

it seems your looking for the million dollar question , Why me Lord ?

Perhaps. But I am genuinely interested in Reformed theology and am trying to resolve some of what appear to me to be inconsistencies.

Yes, the timing is mystifying, but temporality is the context in which finite humans are forced to think and act. Saying it is a mystery does not help for understanding!

historically Calvinists have resolved it by understanding two levels of grace , certainly Calvin had an unexpected view of Heb 6 !

Alright. How then would you apply this concept to the above dilemma?

 

[student ad x]

lol insanity

complete and total insanity

Then this 'foolishness' from the word of God that bro Whitelock conveyed is a stumbling block to you.

I don't believe you even know god to be quite frank

Judge Able has spoken ...

 

[archierieus]

Then this 'foolishness' from the word of God that bro Whitelock conveyed is a stumbling block to you.

Judge Able has spoken ...

Let's all make an effort to stay on topic and avoid personal jabs, put-downs or judgments.

 

[student ad x]

you will soon discover only some are allowed to use logic here , the rest will be treated as gnostics and heretics .... you will find nothing but inconsistency contradiction and confusion from those who love to put others in their place .....

yep

 

[archierieus]

If the reprobate is unable to believe it needs to be understood that this is not because God just arbitrarily made them unable to believe.

They are unable to believe because they won't.

Agreed. That is what Jn. 12 says, and that is what Isaiah says. That is what the Greek says, the advantage being that Greek is a more highly inflected language so we can more easily recognize the distinction in Greek. English is by comparison rather primitive and illogical, due perhaps to its conglomerate origin.

 

[Tzaousios]

If the reprobate is unable to believe it needs to be understood that this is not because God just arbitrarily made them unable to believe.

They are unable to believe because they won't.

In the Calvinist system, based first on Augustine, it seems to be that the reprobate cannot believe because God has determined that they should be allowed not to want to believe.

If God, in his absolute sovereignty, chose to bring the elect out of the mass of the damned, and thus left the remainder to continue to their destruction, it follows that he has withheld the grace that is efficient for them to desire and will to believe in the Savior, which is the other option than the one they are locked into by nature.

Nevertheless, as the Scriptures say, the clay has no right to demand from the Potter why it was made a vessel for destruction. Ultimately it is God demonstrating his cosmic justice for his glorification, according to Calvinists. The reprobate were given the freedom only to desire and want to sin.

God didn't make Adam sin and He doesn't make us sin, we sin because it's in our nature to sin. It's how we roll. We want to sin.

But in the end, according to the Calvinist system, since God is outside of time, and therefore his predestination and foreknowing are connected in an eternal present, it was determined that Adam would sin, and that he determined this according to his divine plan. It was not a part of God's plan that Adam have the option of choosing not to sin. God's predestination and foreknowing of this event are one and the same.

Also, it logically follows that God created evil and determined that it be used according to his divine plan.

 

[cygnusx1]

If the reprobate is unable to believe it needs to be understood that this is not because God just arbitrarily made them unable to believe.

They are unable to believe because they won't.

See, the main thing here is a will that is not merely defective but in open or not so open rebellion.

God didn't make Adam sin and He doesn't make us sin, we sin because it's in our nature to sin. It's how we roll. We want to sin.

But also, it doesn't surprise God and it does not happen outside of His meticulous providence.

When you insist on saying that the non-elect cannot believe and that that is what we believe, I feel compelled to point all this out; that there is more to it than just this.

That's all.

I agree , the problem is when others do not have a understanding of the doctrine of reprobation (or Calvinism) .... what is often ignored depending upon who is writing is that reprobation moves on two causes , Preterition and Justice .


Either we accept that scripture says "they could not believe " which seems the whole point of the exercise (Romans 11) the doctrine is further backed by many other texts .. or we may dismiss this verse (39) and say it is a mistake. I for one am not willing to rush to that conclusion ... ; but let me have a look at a few translations ..

 

[student ad x]

Sure. Next thing you're going to tell me is that there is a Moabite woman, a king who committed adultery and murder, and another king who had 700 wives in His lineage. I can't accept that.

 

[cygnusx1]

International Standard Version (©2008)
This is why they could not believe: Isaiah also said,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)So the people couldn't believe because, as Isaiah also said,


King James Bible
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

American King James Version
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

American Standard Version
For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,

Bible in Basic English
For this reason they were unable to have belief, because Isaiah said again,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaias said again:

Darby Bible Translation
On this account they could not believe, because Esaias said again,

English Revised Version
For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,

Webster's Bible Translation
Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,

Weymouth New Testament
For this reason they were unable to believe--because Isaiah said again,

World English Bible
For this cause they couldn't believe, for Isaiah said again,

Young's Literal Translation
Because of this they were not able to believe, that again Isaiah said,






Pretty conclusive I think . ... these men "could not believe"




*btw , the cause of their INABILITY was never at issue , (deflections abound) instead the very idea of some being UNABLE to believe was the ONLY issue.

 

[Tzaousios]

Since the thread flipped to the next page, I would like to point cygnusx1 to my response in #834 and Bulstrode Whitelock to #840

Thanks for your attention.