Calvinism Refuted

[JDS]

Justified before man. We can not see faith in another, therefore the ir works declare them to be righteous in the court of human observation.

BTW, this will help you with James 2 as well (a freebie)

I don't think I could agree with Abel on much but is this an argument that faith is not a work? Is this yet another contradiction?

How often have I been told that believing is a work and if men were merely required to believe to be saved, then the gospel would be by works.

 

[Hammster]

lol



I'm sorry to waste a post rofling, but



ROFL

I am glad to see that you have a sense of humor, because I got one and I ain't skeered to use it.

 

[drstevej]

no sorry, but this is god's word telling us that god considered her justified by works

it says the same about Abraham

James 2 :22 says Abraham was justified by works when offering up Isaac (Genesis 22). This was ling after He was justified by faith (Genesis 15:6).

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't think I could agree with Abel on much but is this an argument that faith is not a work? Is this yet another contradiction?

How often have I been told that believing is a work and if men were merely required to believe to be saved, then the gospel would be by works.

I feel your pain ....

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

As with James, it would appear that the justification here is of faith not of the person believing. The good works justify or prove the faith of the doer.

We are soteriologically justified by Grace through faith but since faith itself is a gift from God, we say, in a kind of shorthand, that we are justified by faith.

 

[&Abel]

it still says justified by works

can't change that

 

[&Abel]

As with James, it would appear that the justification here is of faith not of the person believing. The good works justify or prove the faith of the doer.

We are soteriologically justified by Grace through faith but since faith itself is a gift from God, we say, in a kind of shorthand, that we are justified by faith.

I do agree with that somewhat

good works sustain and strengthen faith and thus become a part of justification

 

[Tzaousios]

I think it could be argued that the moment they desire it, the desire would be evidence that they are no longer unregenerate.

Yes, but did they recognize and desire it with or without prevenient grace?

Romans 1 and 2, esp. 2:15: they know what is right but their desire is always oriented to their own satisfaction and glory.

Alright. But this seems to have some contradictory implications for the Calvinist system if it is agreed that they in fact recognized a spiritual good.

 

[MamaZ]

I see nothing new with what is Spoken of by BW.. He just words it differently that what we have been but it means the same thing..

 

[Hammster]

there are many I'm sure who think they do good works in the name of the Lord but in actuality are aiding evil



I think there are also those not in Christ who do good things for the right reasons

How would the know what good is?

 

[cygnusx1]

sure , now where did those works come from ... who is it that can bring a clean thing out of an unclean thing ...

from faith

very good , now ,

dig down just another foot , the real treasure is just below ...

where did those works and faith come from ?

"....but he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God. " John 3:21

Amen.

 

[drstevej]

it still says justified by works

can't change that

Of course it does but the context is demonstration the reality of ones faith to OTHERS. And since we can not see faith others declare us righteous (justify us) by our works.

 

[&Abel]

How would the know what good is?

our god given, human conscience

 

[&Abel]

Of course it does but the context is demonstration the reality of ones faith to OTHERS. And since we can not see faith others declare us righteous (justify us) by our works.

works play a role in faith and thus become a part of the overall justification process

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Yes, but did they recognize and desire it with or without prevenient grace?

Well, election is a prevenient grace, isn't it?

But honestly I am not really sure how to answer this.

Alright. But this seems to have some contradictory implications for the Calvinist system if it is agreed that they in fact recognized a spiritual good.

Maybe so. But I don;t think Calvinism denies that even the fallen man has some innate knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong.

What seems to be in question is the motivation?

 

[drstevej]

works play a role in faith and thus become a part of the overall justification process

Prove justification is a process. It is a verdict!

 

[&Abel]

Well, election is a prevenient grace, isn't it?

But honestly I am not really sure how to answer this.



Maybe so. But I don;t think Calvinism denies that even the fallen man has some innate knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong.

What seems to be in question is the motivation?

I know what you mean

a person outside of Christ may do something out of selfish intent leading to more sinful indulgence

but those in Christ do the same

and those outside of Christ can do things out of pure motives just like those within

 

[drstevej]

our god given, human conscience

And our consciences can be defiled or seared.

 

[cygnusx1]

Of course it does but the context is demonstration the reality of ones faith to OTHERS. And since we can not see faith others declare us righteous (justify us) by our works.

that's right bro , wonder what he thinks of "wisdom is justified by her children .... " justification is clearly used in more than one way .








.... same as "world" "whole world " "all " etc ... don't get me started

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I see nothing new with what is Spoken of by BW.. He just words it differently that what we have been but it means the same thing..

Well, this is what happens when we've digested the same truth, we may use different words to describe it but it's the same.

When people have internalized a system of thought, they should not always have to express it using exactly the same words or illustrations.

What's unfortunate is that it can sometimes be confusing for those who are used to dealing with monoliths or who come to the discussion with preconceptions.