Calvinism Refuted

[MamaZ]

I would be most grateful if someone would examine my question above. Despite all the recent bickering in here, I think it is relavent to at least one of the multiple discussions going on. Thanks!

Born again Christians are aliens in this world. Can they see we live a life full of Love for God? I am sure they can.. Born again Christians live with the Joy of the Lord. Knowing in whom we have believed by His grace and knowing that there is nothing in all this world that can ever seperate us from the Love of God through Christ Jesus.. They may not understand why we are full of peace and Joy but it is noticable..

 

[&Abel]

And our consciences can be defiled or seared.

yes and often is but not always

 

[&Abel]

Born again Christians are aliens in this world. Can they see we live a life full of Love for God? I am sure they can.. Born again Christians live with the Joy of the Lord. Knowing in whom we have believed by His grace and knowing that there is nothing in all this world that can ever seperate us from the Love of God through Christ Jesus.. They may not understand why we are full of peace and Joy but it is noticable..

I was an alien long before I came to Christ lol

 

[MamaZ]

Well, JDS keeps bringing it up, I thought it worthwhile to give the point a little more focus but if I am derailing I beg everyones' pardon.

Naw you are not it is just that those so set against Predestination only see predestination their way .

 

[MamaZ]

wrong

I started to uncover God before I knew he was the God of christianity(I had a fairly universal view)

I started to understand evil and the tools it uses(I would say "ignorance and fear are the tools of evil")

and this was without picking up a bible

I also got into a pretty heated debate with someone about Satan and how he lies....that everything he says is a lie

this friend told me Satan had appeared to him and his friend and he said "hes got a pretty good plan" and this person is actually a really kind soul and so I got upset and I told him that he was being lied too

these are all things I realized without even flipping open a bible or being "born again" it was not until months later that I started to really embrace christianity...I was still living in sin and yet I was becoming aware of these things

You uncovered God? Who put in your heart the knowing that God even existed? Who put it in your heart to even desire the things of God?

 

[&Abel]

You uncovered God? Who put in your heart the knowing that God even existed? Who put it in your heart to even desire the things of God?

it came from hearing and my own need to know the truth about myself and existence in general

 

[JDS]

I was looking at the title of the thread and noticed that its name is "Calvinism Refuted". Some of the recent posters seems surprised that some of us are posting in the refuting mode. If I agreed with it, I would not be wasting my time here.

Dave,

You made a comment that we are not to judge hearts, and I heartily agree, but we are to judge words and fruits, and we have commands in scripture to do it. If the Calvinistic portrayal of the person and work of Jesus Christ to the world is not what God says it is, why are those of us who point it out and catalog the inconsistencies considered as judging the heart?

I have repeatedly said that I know none of these men and can only judge what they say and compare it with the revelation of God in his word. Is the very limited Jesus Christ of Calvinism the same Jesus Christ as revealed as the mighty God who is able to save to the uttermost them that come to him in faith? No!

If they preach the right gospel in their personal work, as did Spurgeon and Whitefield, and other men like these and sinners got saved, I say praise the Lord. However, it is not what they teach in their churches and their schools and on these forums and I say it is wrong.

 

[Hammster]

yes and often is but not always

Then God got it wrong when He said that the heart IS deceptively evil.

 

[cygnusx1]

....... I say it is wrong.

yes but you have been wrong before ...

 

[cygnusx1]

works play a role in faith and thus become a part of the overall justification process

Grace and works are in principle opposed.

Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Tzaousios]

drsteve, Hammster, cygnusx1, do any of you have comments on the questions I have raised?

Well, election is a prevenient grace, isn't it?

But honestly I am not really sure how to answer this.

Maybe so. But I don;t think Calvinism denies that even the fallen man has some innate knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong.

What seems to be in question is the motivation?

I am not so sure that election is a prevenient grace when observed by finite, temporalized humans. The regenerate elect before conversion are dead in sin just as much as the unregenerate non-elect.

Their predestined conversion has not taken place until they are regenerated. Just because they have seen the spiritual good and recognized it does not mean they have at that moment been regenerated.

Also, pre-conversion, the elect's motivation is not necessarily any different than the unregenerate non-elect's motivation. Then, how are either categories of people different in respect to what they desire and will?

Born again Christians are aliens in this world. Can they see we live a life full of Love for God? I am sure they can.. Born again Christians live with the Joy of the Lord. Knowing in whom we have believed by His grace and knowing that there is nothing in all this world that can ever seperate us from the Love of God through Christ Jesus.. They may not understand why we are full of peace and Joy but it is noticable..

But now you are admitting that the unregenerate non-elect can see and recognize the spiritual good for what it is. That implies they have done so of their own will and could possibly even desire it. How do you resolve this?

 

[Hammster]

I was looking at the title of the thread and noticed that its name is "Calvinism Refuted". Some of the recent posters seems surprised that some of us are posting in the refuting mode. If I agreed with it, I would not be wasting my time here.



Dave,



You made a comment that we are not to judge hearts, and I heartily agree, but we are to judge words and fruits, and we have commands in scripture to do it. If the Calvinistic portrayal of the person and work of Jesus Christ to the world is not what God says it is, why are those of us who point it out and catalog the inconsistencies considered as judging the heart?



I have repeatedly said that I know none of these men and can only judge what they say and compare it with the revelation of God in his word. Is the very limited Jesus Christ of Calvinism the same Jesus Christ as revealed as the mighty God who is able to save to the uttermost them that come to him in faith? No!



If they preach the right gospel in their personal work, as did Spurgeon and Whitefield, and other men like these and sinners got saved, I say praise the Lord. However, it is not what they teach in their churches and their schools and on these forums and I say it is wrong.

I don't mind if you try to refute Calvinism. But I do mind when you redefine it and then try to refute it.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I was looking at the title of the thread and noticed that its name is "Calvinism Refuted". Some of the recent posters seems surprised that some of us are posting in the refuting mode. If I agreed with it, I would not be wasting my time here.

Dave,

You made a comment that we are not to judge hearts, and I heartily agree, but we are to judge words and fruits, and we have commands in scripture to do it. If the Calvinistic portrayal of the person and work of Jesus Christ to the world is not what God says it is, why are those of us who point it out and catalog the inconsistencies considered as judging the heart?

I have repeatedly said that I know none of these men and can only judge what they say and compare it with the revelation of God in his word. Is the very limited Jesus Christ of Calvinism the same Jesus Christ as revealed as the mighty God who is able to save to the uttermost then that come to him in faith.

If they preach the right gospel in their personal work, as did Spurgeon and Whitefield, and men like these and men got saved, I say praise the Lord. However, it is not what they teach in their churches and their schools and on these forums and I say it is wrong.

I feel your pain.

We aren't perfect and we aren't always consistent with one another. I see Calvinists say things that cause me no end of annoyance because it seems that in the rush to make a point, they (like anyone really) will go for the sound byte rather than the considered response. And then some explanation needs to happen.

If I have been a cause of any frustration to you I sincerely beg your pardon.

The two men you mention, Spurgeon and Whitefield are great heroes of mine. It warmed my heart to see you mention them with respect and approval.

That's all I really wanted to say, and I wanted to say it publicly.

Edited to add: To piggyback on Hammster's point, I would hope that you would nourish a warm charity toward us as you try to see our point of view and that in doing so you would make the honest effort to see the system as a whole behind the various presentations we may make of it, colored as they must necessarily be by our own experience and gifts.

 

[MamaZ]

I was an alien long before I came to Christ lol

I felt like one myself..

 

[MamaZ]

it came from hearing and my own need to know the truth about myself and existence in general

So all your knowledge about God came from you? Scripture teaches us that God puts that knowing in us..

 

[JDS]

I see nothing new with what is Spoken of by BW.. He just words it differently that what we have been but it means the same thing..

BW said men have a will to believe or not believe, insinuating that total depravity is not death in the sense of total inability. He said he had used the analogy of a dead person but that it is a wrong analogy to express his view of Calvinism. However you cut it, this is teachlng "free will" and it is not what you and others have been saying.

Now, do you believe that it is possible for every person to believe the gospel and be saved "IF" they will believe? BW does!

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

BW said men have a will to believe or not believe, insinuating that total depravity is not death in the sense of total inability. He said he had used the analogy of a dead person but that it is a wrong analogy to express his view of Calvinism. However you cut it, this is teachlng "free will" and it is not what you and others have been saying.

Now, do you believe that it is possible for every person to believe the gospel and be saved "IF" they will believe? BW does!

JDS, that's not a fair representation of what I said.

 

[Hammster]

Oh, sure BW, make us all look bad. BTW you have the coolest name on here.

I am sure I have said at least one dumb thing. Maybe two, if I am being humble.

That's why I prefer honest questions and honest ideas. So I apologize fir any disrespect I have shown some of you.

The rest I will repent for later.

 

[MamaZ]

BW said men have a will to believe or not believe, insinuating that total depravity is not death in the sense of total inability. He said he had used the analogy of a dead person but that it is a wrong analogy to express his view of Calvinism. However you cut it, this is teachlng "free will" and it is not what you and others have been saying.

Now, do you believe that it is possible for every person to believe the gospel and be saved "IF" they will believe? BW does!

Well it is the will part.. Will they believe if Not drawn or chosen by God to do So? Natural mens wills are so far from Gods will that now a days men don't believe there is sin.. Just bad choices.,.

 

[cygnusx1]

drsteve, Hammster, cygnusx1, do any of you have comments on the questions I have raised?



I am not so sure that election is a prevenient grace when observed by finite, temporalized humans. The regenerate elect before conversion are dead in sin just as much as the unregenerate non-elect.

sure , election is by God's unmerited Grace ... and it is before other gifts .. so i would have to say yes , because with election comes Christ , all blessings and graces are in Him and the elect have always been in Christ.

Their predestined conversion has not taken place until they are regenerated. Just because they have seen the spiritual good and recognized it does not mean they have at that moment been regenerated.

it doesn't mean that they haven't been regenerated , the timing is mysterious the order is revealed.

Also, pre-conversion, the elect's motivation is not necessarily any different than the unregenerate non-elect's motivation. Then, how are either categories of people different in respect to what they desire and will?

it seems your looking for the million dollar question , Why me Lord ?

But now you are admitting that the unregenerate non-elect can see and recognize the spiritual good for what it is. That implies they have done so of their own will and could possibly even desire it. How do you resolve this?

historically Calvinists have resolved it by understanding two levels of grace , certainly Calvin had an unexpected view of Heb 6 !