Calvinism Refuted

[heymikey80]

Well, as you know the first question would be to know where this is coming from. Human understanding is not necessarily going to be consistent with Scriptural understanding

I have the mind of Christ. Scripture is my source for correct living, actions, thinking and fellowship II Tim 3:16

So in your estimate, contradicting the reason why Paul would even write a letter to Corinth much less, "We have the mind of Christ", what you think Scripture says is what Scripture says.

I'm actually of the opinion that's what Paul was rejecting in 1 Corinthians.

Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 1 Cor 14:36-38
​

Your claim is contradicted by a thousand inconsistencies in the way you lead your life. Plus Scripture itself says you aren't leading your life according to Scripture:

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Rom 7:25

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." Rom 4:4-8
​

Is contradicting what Scripture says, contradicting what Scripture says?

· All the determination to save: Christ was the result of that determination that is final.
· All the power: Yes He does
· All the determination to predetermine circumstances - He did? That is news to me.

OK, then you're saying God does not have either absolute righteousness or absolute foreknowledge. Absolute righteousness would form God's intent -- determination -- to prevent evil. Absolute knowledge would prevent God's unawareness of the evil He would intentionally -- even if intentional neglect -- unleash in creation.

(1) The natural events of life, weather, night, day, hot, cold etc. is a one time act which was altered to a certain extent at the flood. The procreation of man with his sin nature and the corruption of the gene pool are on going products of the fall. God does choose to intervene here and there to cure, heal, and change to answer prayers. Also, if the natural process of a man's life needs to be altered to accomplish a given purpose God not only can but will when necessary as this too is foreknown. And all this is known and because it is know it is also determined. In the sense you may be suggesting all things are robotically determined, that is not true. The primary cause which permits limited free choice and the natural outcome of life cycles are set by determination but we all know that within this predetermine life cycle certain freedoms exist.

Voiced false suspicions become falsehoods when voiced.

· Now how is man free? Man is limited to his environment. His freedoms are within his predetermined realm of existence. You decide to get up and drive you car, eat at noon or 1 pm etc and on and on. God knows all events, actions, decisions, because He is God and His plane uses all of man’s limited free will to accomplish his plan which by the way includes man’s limited freedom too. Man’s free acts are not determined individually but his ability and realm of freedom are. Man was created to function within an environment. This environment is determined.
· God predetermined all the circumstances, all the creation, all the reality that could bring anyone to faith, then how is it "free" that God would change this, send missionaries, and essentially change the circumstances for some -- and not others?
· There is no freedom if man is not free to decide. God’s plan allows for the freedom to decide and this predetermined freedom is part of God sovereign predetermined plan. That which he permits is neither outside his power nor his will to plan it. That is the great thing about God, He can do it. Election based on foreknowledge is simple.

Election based on foreknowledge of actions or will is excluded by Paul.

Kindly, but frankly, it behoves me that you don't understand things as I do. God's hands are not tied by my perception of Him or His ability to carry out His will. What you say to me and others makes no logical sense at all. Don't take that as a put down, because I know you don't see it that way.

They're words. They're consistent. And dealing with the inconsistencies would be one way of answering them. Not dealing with them leaves them standing.

That is a very odd way of stating whatever it is you are trying to express. I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say. But I will try: The free acts of missionaries to follow the will of God to evangelize does not constrain God, it fulfills God's purpose. The reason God can't convert everyone is because he has decided to make it a free choice for man. This is the beauty of salvation.

Scripture citation. You said at first that your actions are based on Scripture. Demonstrate it.

That is why election is on the basis of foreknowledge. God elected persons to salvation on the basis of His foreknowledge that he would in fact receive the free gift of Grace in Christ from the foundation of the world, In God’s Eternal Now. And again God, because he has this absolute knowledge and within all the real and possible possibilities God absolutely knows and as such these things are absolutely determine because they will come to pass, all within the purpose, and will of God. God is in total control. God's hands are never tied by our arguments and words.

This has been dealt-with, from the start. I've pointed out that Romans 9 shows God's election cannot be on God's foreknowledge of what someone would do, or what someone would want. (Rom 9:11-19)

Where to next. A theology really needs a Scriptural basis on which to stand, as you've mentioned above.

 

[Hammster]

You obviously consider propitiation to be forgiveness. It is not! The wrath of God is still reality, but not for the saved. The redeemed will be delivered from the wrath to come. The redeemed are the children of God, not through election, but through faith and the new birth. This truth is constantly before us in scripture and I suspect that you and those like you are willing to misrepresent clear and plain teaching on the subject of salvation because of preconceptions and frankly, because you just don't believe them.



I just dealt with this truth in Romans 8, dealing with the Spirit in the chapter, and you immediately accuse me of one verse hermeneutics. How can I deal with this kind of lack of perception of the discussion? Sometimes my mind is blown this kind of reasoning.



I have not seen you present a case for your beliefs. Yours seems to be more about what you do not believe.

First off, the thread is called Calvinism Refuted, so the burden of proof is on you to disprove it." Plus, I really shouldn't have to make my case since you should be well versed in Calvinism if you are going to refute it." How can you refute that which you don't know?

Second, anything you posted concerning Romans 8 must have happened while I was writing the quoted post. I was responding to you last post to me. In that one you used single verses out of context.

Third, as far as propitiation is concerned, the only reason I can see why you think it has to refer to a future event is so that it will fit your theology. Nowhere does the propitiation speak of a future event. I even gave you a reference in Hebrews to look up. Either you didn't read it, didn't understand it, or ignored it.

 

[JDS]

it's no good bypassing election , election is unto salvation through faith and sanctification of the spirit , and YES God's wrath has been appeased , certainly not for everyone , but only for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8) , who are those IN Christ ?

Eph 1 tells us the elect are all (have been) chosen in Christ Jesus ; repeat , when do we get in Christ ? We are in Christ from before the foundation of the world , blessed in him before creation , and prior to ANY baptism you or I partook of , we died with Christ , yes 2000 years ago God's Just anger , wrath and hatred of sin fell upon Christ AND THE ELECT , He became sin for us , sin was condemned on the cross , and we died in/with Christ ... right back then!

The safest land that exists when a fire goes out of control , burning everything in it's path is land that has already been BURNED!

Christians do not wait until judgment day to be free from God's wrath , There is NOW , no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus .

Hammster said this to me.

1. You have to quit citing single verses. I would suggest going to STR.org and requesting a booklet entitled "Never Read a Single Verse Again". Very helpful.

This underlies the problem all you Calvinists have. You have no personal convictions based on your own study and prayer. You constantly and consistently argue for a system of belief and that is the reason you do not have any confidence in what the scriptures actually say. Your doctrines do not come from the scriptures in any personal application. Except for the Hyper/hyper like the B57 variety, you march nearly in lockstep.

God said that our Lord Jesus Christ was the propitiation for our sins, but wait, he is not only the propitiation for our sins but he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Now, Calvin, Augustine, Spurgeon, Whitfield, the council of Dorht, the greater cathechism, and a host of others say that the whole world is not meant by the statement and you choose to believe them and not believe John who wrote the passage. You have not considered how God uses the phrase "the whole world" and seems not to trouble you that this would be the only time God used the term this way in the 11 times he used it in scripture.

May I kindly suggest that you are following the wroong men and teachers and they have taught you to not only disbelieve scripture but to actually deny what it says.

If Christ died for all, then were all dead, the scriptures argue. And he died for all, he plainly says.

Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, the scriptures promise and yet you say: Not so!

The bible says let him that heareth say come and let him that is athrist come and whosoever will let him take of the water (The Holy Spirit) of life freely.

These are serious issues and there simply is no way to reasoning them away because there are too many of them and they are always consistent.

I am here to help you see that Calvinism cannot be defended scripturally and to challenge you to forsake it and believe the truth before it is too late.

 

[cygnusx1]

First off, the thread is called Calvinism Refuted, so the burden of proof is on you to disprove it." Plus, I really shouldn't have to make my case since you should be well versed in Calvinism if you are going to refute it." How can you refute that which you don't know?

Second, anything you posted concerning Romans 8 must have happened while I was writing the quoted post. I was responding to you last post to me. In that one you used single verses out of context.

Third, as far as propitiation is concerned, the only reason I can see why you think it has to refer to a future event is so that it will fit your theology. Nowhere does the propitiation speak of a future event. I even gave you a reference in Hebrews to look up. Either you didn't read it, didn't understand it, or ignored it.

excellent work bro , particularly the third point , we know that God is propitiated because God is reconciled to both Jews and Gentiles (the world) NOW .

Attempting to turn Propitiation into ; 'hypothetical-conditional-provisional-appeasement' does violence to the true doctrine and undermines the ONCE for all (time) nature of the atonement of Christ , we have access to the inner tabernacle , the HOLY OF HOLLIES right now , without definite Propitiation we could not , ney , MUST not seek to enter ........ the world may NOT enter there , their consciences are defiled , they are not Priests , and they are not sons of the Promise.

The only men who UNLAWFULLY enter the Holy of hollies are the APOSTATE , these are doubly condemned (Heb 10: 25-39)

Compare the severest warning ; 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, "Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body."

1 Corinthians 11:29 (KJV) says, "We eat and drink damnation to ourselves."


Chapter 10

1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13. From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21. And having an high priest over the house of God;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

 

[Hammster]

JDS, are you making the argument the every place that 'whole world' is used that it means the same thing?

 

[JDS]

First off, the thread is called Calvinism Refuted, so the burden of proof is on you to disprove it." Plus, I really shouldn't have to make my case since you should be well versed in Calvinism if you are going to refute it." How can you refute that which you don't know?

Second, anything you posted concerning Romans 8 must have happened while I was writing the quoted post. I was responding to you last post to me. In that one you used single verses out of context.

Third, as far as propitiation is concerned, the only reason I can see why you think it has to refer to a future event is so that it will fit your theology. Nowhere does the propitiation speak of a future event. I even gave you a reference in Hebrews to look up. Either you didn't read it, didn't understand it, or ignored it.

I do not believe, nor teach that propitiation is a future event. It is a one time sacrifice by Jesus Christ on the cross that propitiated God. I made the point that God was propitiated for the sins of Israel by the blood of animals, but there was never a time when all Israel was saved.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The question is, did he do it?

I say yes he did!

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The difference between "us" and "them" is belief in the testimony of God concerning his son, who died for us.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

That's it! Nothing else.

 

[cygnusx1]

I do not believe, nor teach that propitiation is a future event. It is a one time sacrifice by Jesus Christ on the cross that propitiated God. I made the point that God was propitiated for the sins of Israel by the blood of animals, but there was never a time when all Israel was saved.

yes , for three reasons ;

1. The atonement of animals does not deal with the conscience .
2. The atonement of animals only dealt temporarily with sin and had to be REPEATED.
3.God saw a superior way of atonement , through Christ the High Priest and the sacrifice.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The question is, did he do it?

I say yes he did!

yes , and that is the ground of our faith ........ an atonement that ATONES!

Those who say the atonement atoned for everyone's sin are either UNIVERSALISTS , or HYPERTHETICAL redemptionists.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

the words "might be" is better understood as "in order that" ... I have told you this before.

The difference between "us" and "them" is belief in the testimony of God concerning his son, who died for us.

the difference ? who maketh thee to differ ?.... Scripture says God does.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

That's it! Nothing else.

I wouldn't go that far .........

 

[JDS]

excellent work bro , particularly the third point , we know that God is propitiated because God is reconciled to both Jews and Gentiles (the world) NOW .

Attempting to turn Propitiation into ; 'hypothetical-conditional-provisional-appeasement' does violence to the true doctrine and undermines the ONCE for all (time) nature of the atonement of Christ , we have access to the inner tabernacle , the HOLY OF HOLLIES right now , without definite Propitiation we could not , ney , MUST not seek to enter ........ the world may NOT enter there , their consciences are defiled , they are not Priests , and they are not sons of the Promise.

The only men who UNLAWFULLY enter the Holy of hollies are the APOSTATE , these are doubly condemned (Heb 10: 25-39)

Compare the severest warning ; 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, "Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body."

1 Corinthians 11:29 (KJV) says, "We eat and drink damnation to ourselves."


Chapter 10

1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13. From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21. And having an high priest over the house of God;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

The way into the holiest was made possible by the cross, friend. There is no veil now and everyone is welcome tio come through Jesus Christ. He said: I am the way to the Father and no one can come but through him. Jn 6:14.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


By the which will (New Testament) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

How are the Jews sanctified? By the New Testament in his blood.

To prove that he is speaking of the new Testament, I offer this:

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Speaking to the Jews, Peter said this:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Did you understand that? They are sanctified by the Spirit, who indwells them, setting them apart and making them elect. They are elect through that process and no other! The New Testament made this possible because the death of the testator is required for a testament to be in effect.

The gentile believers are elected the very same way: Note:

2 Th 2;13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (How) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
No testament is mentioned here because God has made them partakers when they were not under any testaments from God. It is by invitation that gentiles are included and that invitation is by the gospel.

The beginning for the gentiles was in Acts 10 with the conversion of Corneilus.

Before that, gentiles were in this condition, according to God.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

You men are blinded by your system concerning bible salvation and the mind of God. There is hope for you, but not for long. It is time to reevaluate your doctrines.

 

[Hammster]

I do not believe, nor teach that propitiation is a future event. It is a one time sacrifice by Jesus Christ on the cross that propitiated God. I made the point that God was propitiated for the sins of Israel by the blood of animals, but there was never a time when all Israel was saved.



Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



The question is, did he do it?



I say yes he did!



2Co 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



The difference between "us" and "them" is belief in the testimony of God concerning his son, who died for us.



Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.



That's it! Nothing else.

Did you read Hebrews 9:11-26, or just ONE VERSE that you think makes your argument? I am certain that the propitiation that Jesus makes is much greater than the one the High Priest made in the OT. And note in v. ef who Jesus mediates for.

 

[JDS]

Did you read Hebrews 9:11-26, or just ONE VERSE that you think makes your argument? I am certain that the propitiation that Jesus makes is much greater than the one the High Priest made in the OT. And note in v. ef who Jesus mediates for.

Calvinism is refuted by context. And yes, I am aware of what He 9 teaches but I do not think you are. Which verse taken alone do you disagree with?

 

[Hammster]

Calvinism is refuted by context. And yes, I am aware of what He 9 teaches but I do not think you are. Which verse taken alone do you disagree with?

I don't take verses alone.

What does Hebrews 9 teach?

 

[cygnusx1]

The way into the holiest was made possible by the cross, friend. There is no veil now and everyone is welcome tio come through Jesus Christ. He said: I am the way to the Father and no one can come but through him. Jn 6:14.

The way into the Holy of Hollies is restricted to ;

1. The priesthood of ALL believers
2. He who has faith
3. He who has been sanctified.

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. "

obviously not everyone is sanctified , not everyone has faith , and not everyone has been called.

Romans 8

1. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
2. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
3. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
4. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
5. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
6. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
7. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

"By the which will (New Testament) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

again it's "we" the believer , not the unbeliever , God doesn't change , the Tabernacle of OLD is but a copy of the eternal made without hands , strict laws still apply .... see the copious warnings in Hebrews!

How are the Jews sanctified? By the New Testament in his blood.

yes , now show all JEWS are sanctified by Christ's blood , you will find it impossible .

To prove that he is speaking of the new Testament, I offer this:

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Speaking to the Jews, Peter said this:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Did you understand that? They are sanctified by the Spirit, who indwells them, setting them apart and making them elect. They are elect through that process and no other!

horse before cart ... again!

Election takes place in eternity , before Adam sinned. (Eph 1 Prov 8)

You are confusing Election with salvation , again.

The New Testament made this possible because the death of the testator is required for a testament to be in effect.

and your point .........

The gentile believers are elected the very same way: Note:

2 Th 2;13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (How) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
No testament is mentioned here because God has made them partakers when they were not under any testaments from God. It is by invitation that gentiles are included and that invitation is by the gospel.

The beginning for the gentiles was in Acts 10 with the conversion of Corneilus.

Before that, gentiles were in this condition, according to God.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

talk about drift off ....

You men are blinded by your system concerning bible salvation and the mind of God. There is hope for you, but not for long. It is time to reevaluate your doctrines.

you are blinded by your prejudice and pride ........ it's time you had a vacation and asked the Lord to open your understanding.

 

[JDS]

I don't take verses alone.

What does that mean? You don't believe single verses?

 

[Hammster]

What does that mean? You don't believe single verses?

I read verses in context, not singularly. I read passages, chapters and books.

 

[JDS]

The way into the Holy of Hollies is restricted to ;

1. The priesthood of ALL believers
2. He who has faith
3. He who has been sanctified.

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. "

obviously not everyone is sanctified , not everyone has faith , and not everyone has been called.

The way to the Father is through the son. That is the New Testament doctrine. See Jn 14:6. Do not confuse the issue. Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. The call is by the gospel which the church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to preach to the whole world.

Would you go on record disagreeing with this?

Called BY the gospel:

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Called TO BE saints, i e sanctified ones.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

It is the indwelling Spirit who santifies by his presence.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This is simple but not many seem to understand it. Many attempt to m ake this exclusive to a very few.

Romans 8

1. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
2. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
3. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
4. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
5. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
6. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
7. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

"By the which will (New Testament) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

again it's "we" the believer , not the unbeliever , God doesn't change , the Tabernacle of OLD is but a copy of the eternal made without hands , strict laws still apply .... see the copious warnings in Hebrews!

This is true. The believer is sanctified because he has received the Spirit by faith. This in no way limits anyone from being saved. If the lost believe the gospel, they too will be sanctified by the same Spirit.

yes , now show all JEWS are sanctified by Christ's blood , you will find it impossible .

The blood of Christ has not sanctified all Jews and no one has made that claim. The claim is that the blood of Christ has propitiated God on behalf of all Jews. There is a difference but you confuse terms as well as the roles of the members of the Godhead in salvation. The bible says in Romans 4; "blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin".

Hebrews says: Jesus Christ has appeared once in the end of the world to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Paul says "and all things are of God who has reconciled all things to himself by Jesus Christ, not imputing their sins unto them, and hath given us the word of reconciliation."

The pronoun "their" refers to the world, friend.

Are you on record disagreeing with these verses?

horse before cart ... again!

Election takes place in eternity , before Adam sinned. (Eph 1 Prov 8)

You are confusing Election with salvation , again.

Election does not take place in eternity for individuals. This is a stumbling block for you. And because of your teaching that one who is elect cannot possibly be lost, election is akin to salvation and the cross of Jesus Christ is incidental to it. This is a diminishing of the cross and by extension,m to the glory of Jesus Christ. In your system, election is more important than the cross, but it is not that way in my belief. I agree with Paul. "God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of Jesus Christ...."

and your point .........

talk about drift off ....

Don't you remember what you teach about those in the OT. You teach they are born again and that the church existed way back in time past if you are a classic Calvinist.

 

[JDS]

I read verses in context, not singularly. I read passages, chapters and books.

May I kindly suggest that you have come to wrong conclusions?

 

[Hammster]

May I kindly suggest that you have come to wrong conclusions?

For reading things in context? This ought to be good.

 

[JDS]

For reading things in context? This ought to be good.

Ha! For reading in the context of calvinistic thought! Wasn't it you who directed me to read str.org or some sort link so I could be straightened out on my doctrine. Doesn't the scriptures have a context for that subject?

 

[heymikey80]

This is true. The believer is sanctified because he has received the Spirit by faith. This in no way limits anyone from being saved. If the lost believe the gospel, they too will be sanctified by the same Spirit.

But of course only those born of God believe in Jesus. 1 John 5:1

The blood of Christ has not sanctified all Jews and no one has made that claim. The claim is that the blood of Christ has propitiated God on behalf of all Jews. There is a difference but you confuse terms as well as the roles of the members of the Godhead in salvation. The bible says in Romans 4; "blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin".

The purpose was ... also to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Rom 4:12

The connection here is spiritual. So the propitiation is not toward all outward Jews, for "an outward Jew isn't one, but an inward Jew is one" Rom 2:28-29.

Hebrews says: Jesus Christ has appeared once in the end of the world to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

His purpose is to take away sin. That purpose is not fulfilled by His sacrifice. John says, "If we say we have no sin, we're lying to ourselves ... and we make God a liar." 1 Jn 1:8,10 So sin is not "put away" after Jesus' sacrifice. Nor is it "put away" among Christians, even. The intent is to accomplish this putting-away entirely by the New Creation.

Paul says "and all things are of God who has reconciled all things to himself by Jesus Christ, not imputing their sins unto them, and hath given us the word of reconciliation."

The pronoun "their" refers to the world, friend.

Are you on record disagreeing with these verses?

Appreciate your opinion for what it is, but it is indeed your opinion. Paul uses pronouns very oddly here, and you won't find "world" in the plural here.

You'd have to navigate up. The grammatical choice is "those who live," which of course just as well fits as Christians who live in Christ.

Election does not take place in eternity for individuals. This is a stumbling block for you.

"He chose us by Him before the foundation of the world" Ep. 1:4 is a quite reasonable view of this verse. Once again, your interpretation is not Scripture. It's your interpretation.

And because of your teaching that one who is elect cannot possibly be lost, election is akin to salvation and the cross of Jesus Christ is incidental to it. This is a diminishing of the cross and by extension,m to the glory of Jesus Christ. In your system, election is more important than the cross, but it is not that way in my belief. I agree with Paul. "God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of Jesus Christ...."

This is simply mischaracterization. It's wrong.

To make an equal and opposite retort, I'll say it about yours: Because of your teaching that one is saved by faith as a cause, belief is akin to salvation and the cross of Jesus Christ is incidental to it. This is a diminishing of the cross and by extension, to the glory of Jesus Christ. In your system, belief is more important than the cross, but it is not that way in my belief. I agree with Paul. "God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of Jesus Christ...."

Don't you remember what you teach about those in the OT. You teach they are born again and that the church existed way back in time past if you are a classic Calvinist.

More anti-Calvinist rhetoric telling us what we think. What, you think we don't know what we think? You say what we're thinking ... when we're right here! Hello! I'm standing right here. And you're wrong.

The people of God definitely did exist way back in time past, and that's what scopes the Church of Christ today. They certainly are a part of us in this sense: "God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they [OT believers] should not be made perfect." Heb 11:40 They're different in certain other ways. Definition of terms is critical. You've made no attempt at it. That's a disingenuous oversimplification.

 

[Hammster]

Ha! For reading in the context of calvinistic thought! Wasn't it you who directed me to read str.org or some sort link so I could be straightened out on my doctrine. Doesn't the scriptures have a context for that subject?

Is there a point somewhere?