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Calvinism Refuted

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heymikey80

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Heh! the snippet of thread puts JDS in the uncomfortable position of acceding that Scripture passages, chapters and books are Calvinistic.

Or engaging in Bait & Switch tactics.

Either way it's not good for your argument, JDS.
What does that mean? You don't believe single verses?
I read verses in context, not singularly. I read passages, chapters and books.
May I kindly suggest that you have come to wrong conclusions?
For reading things in context? This ought to be good.
Ha! For reading in the context of calvinistic thought! Wasn't it you who directed me to read str.org or some sort link so I could be straightened out on my doctrine. Doesn't the scriptures have a context for that subject?
 
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Hammster

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Heh! the snippet of thread puts JDS in the uncomfortable position of acceding that Scripture passages, chapters and books are Calvinistic.



Or engaging in Bait & Switch tactics.



Either way it's not good for your argument, JDS.



Are you sure you have that in the right context? After all, you are a Calvinist.
 
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heymikey80

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Are you sure you have that in the right context? After all, you are a Calvinist.
Pretty sure. It's no unusual discomfort for me that Scripture is Calvinistic -- but it must be uncomfortable for JDS.
 
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JDS

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Heh! the snippet of thread puts JDS in the uncomfortable position of acceding that Scripture passages, chapters and books are Calvinistic.

Or engaging in Bait & Switch tactics.

Either way it's not good for your argument, JDS.


You did not go back far enough. The point was that Calvinists, according to me, do not have any personal, thought out, and prayed over convictions of their own. I call it corporate thought. He pointed me to a Calvinist thinker to prove his theology and not the scriptures. I asked him if the scriptures have any teaching on the subject. It seems to me a sola scriptura man would have at least a little confidence that they could correct me. It seems I am always being pointed to another Calvinist book by the calvinists. I don't have time to read all these books!
 
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JDS

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And I'm still waiting for an explanation of Hebrews 9:11 and following from JDS.


What do you want Hebrews 9:11 to say? The high priesthood is melchisedecic and the tabernacle is the heavenly. God is propitiated by the blood that was sprinkled there and the high priest intercedes for the believer.
 
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Hammster

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You did not go back far enough. The point was that Calvinists, according to me, do not have any personal, thought out, and prayed over convictions of their own. I call it corporate thought. He pointed me to a Calvinist thinker to prove his theology and not the scriptures. I asked him if the scriptures have any teaching on the subject. It seems to me a sola scriptura man would have at least a little confidence that they could correct me. It seems I am always being pointed to another Calvinist book by the calvinists. I don't have time to read all these books!







The booklet I was referring you to had nothing to do with forwarding my argument. It is just a book helping people to not just look at single verses, but to look at passages, chapters and books so that you can look at thoughts in the context in which they were intended. I will not refer you to any author to make my point, except The Holy Spirit.
 
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Hammster

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What do you want Hebrews 9:11 to say? The high priesthood is melchisedecic and the tabernacle is the heavenly. God is propitiated by the blood that was sprinkled there and the high priest intercedes for the believer.



Yea. You are now a Calvinist.
 
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nobdysfool

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You did not go back far enough. The point was that Calvinists, according to me, do not have any personal, thought out, and prayed over convictions of their own. I call it corporate thought. He pointed me to a Calvinist thinker to prove his theology and not the scriptures. I asked him if the scriptures have any teaching on the subject. It seems to me a sola scriptura man would have at least a little confidence that they could correct me. It seems I am always being pointed to another Calvinist book by the calvinists. I don't have time to read all these books!

Well, you're hardly the authority on Calvinists, now, are you? You have constructed this straw man you call Calvinism, and tried to convince everyone here that it was the real thing, and so far, you haven't been able to pull it off, because the real Calvinists here have consistently challenged you on it, and have shown that you clearly don't have a clue what real Calvinism is. Wherever you got your information from, you were told wrong. They told you lies, and you believed them. You say you don't have time to read "all those books" by Calvinists, but you apparently had time to read stuff by anti-Calvinists. Pardon me if I fail to find much sympathy.

I notice you haven't taken a shot at the thread I posted a couple days ago, "A Treatise upon the Sovereignty of God vs. the Free Will of Man". Plenty of scripture there. Have a go at it, why don't you?
 
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JDS

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I notice you haven't taken a shot at the thread I posted a couple days ago, "A Treatise upon the Sovereignty of God vs. the Free Will of Man". Plenty of scripture there. Have a go at it, why don't you?


Anyone who would define the sovereignty of God (a none biblical term, BTW) to mean that a person cannot hear and comprehend something as simple as the gospel of Jesus Christ and decide to believe it or disbelieve it, is incredibly naive, to say the very least. Who could get grown men with high IQ's to believe such a thing as that, and what does it say for those who will believe it?

You fellows have several years experiencing the human phenomenon called life. You know how things work. You have self identity. You make decisions based on information you receive every day. If you are in a building without windows and someone tells you it is raining outside, you pick up the umbrella. You believe them if it is a credible source.

To say a person, hearing the gospel, cannot believe it, is not a question of theology, it is a question of belief. The gospel is just too simple for you to believe it. but it is a fact from the scriptures. Go and preach the gospel to every creature and whosoever believes it will be saved, Jesus Christ said to ones who had witnessed his resurrection and had believed it.

The gospel is simple and an aborigine in the outback of Australia, or anyone else in the world, can believe it if he hears it and will be saved if he does even though he has never been in contact with it beforehand. This is a promise from God Almighty.

Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else, God says.

The gospel:
Men are sinners because they sin. They have no power against it.
The wages of sin is death in the Lake of Fire forever
Sin is a conscious and deliberate act by one who knows he is sinning.
The merciful and gracious God who created man loved the world and did not wish them to perish in the Lake of Fire
He sent his son, who did have power over sin and who never sinned, to finally be a perfect sacrifice for sinful men and to substitute in their death, every one of them.
But the sting of sin is death and death could not hold him because he had never sinned and so he broke the power of death and overcame it by rising from the dead.
God was satisfied by his sacrifice on their behalf and he gave all condemned men a promise that he would forgive their sin and save them from death in the Lake of fire if they would just believe him and accept his son as their saviour.
He poured out the Spirit of his son into all the world, like water, so all who would believe him and receive him by faith in his sacrifice on their behalf could have the Life of his son.
Those who will simply believe that God has made a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of his son will receive the same Spirit of life that raised Jesus Christ from the dead and quickened him and they will have life instead of death and no more condemnation by sin, though they may still commit acts of sin.

There is no trick to this and there are no exceptions of men and there is no condition of a previous election to be saved. There is a condition of faith. One must believe it!
 
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Hammster

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Anyone who would define the sovereignty of God (a none biblical term, BTW) to mean that a person cannot hear and comprehend something as simple as the gospel of Jesus Christ and decide to believe it or disbelieve it, is incredibly naive, to say the very least. Who could get grown men with high IQ's to believe such a thing as that, and what does it say for those who will believe it?



You fellows have several years experiencing the human phenomenon called life. You know how things work. You have self identity. You make decisions based on information you receive every day. If you are in a building without windows and someone tells you it is raining outside, you pick up the umbrella. You believe them if it is a credible source.



To say a person, hearing the gospel, cannot believe it, is not a question of theology, it is a question of belief. The gospel is just too simple for you to believe it. but it is a fact from the scriptures. Go and preach the gospel to every creature and whosoever believes it will be saved, Jesus Christ said to ones who had witnessed his resurrection and had believed it.



The gospel is simple and an aborigine in the outback of Australia, or anyone else in the world, can believe it if he hears it and will be saved if he does even though he has never been in contact with it beforehand. This is a promise from God Almighty.



Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else, God says.



The gospel:

Men are sinners because they sin. They have no power against it.

The wages of sin is death in the Lake of Fire forever

Sin is a conscious and deliberate act by one who knows he is sinning.

The merciful and gracious God who created man loved the world and did not wish them to perish in the Lake of Fire

He sent his son, who did have power over sin and who never sinned, to finally be a perfect sacrifice for sinful men and to substitute in their death, every one of them.

But the sting of sin is death and death could not hold him because he had never sinned and so he broke the power of death and overcame it by rising from the dead.

God was satisfied by his sacrifice on their behalf and he gave all condemned men a promise that he would forgive their sin and save them from death in the Lake of fire if they would just believe him and accept his son as their saviour.

He poured out the Spirit of his son into all the world, like water, so all who would believe him and receive him by faith in his sacrifice on their behalf could have the Life of his son.

Those who will simply believe that God has made a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of his son will receive the same Spirit of life that raised Jesus Christ from the dead and quickened him and they will have life instead of death and no more condemnation by sin, though they may still commit acts of sin.



There is no trick to this and there are no exceptions of men and there is no condition of a previous election to be saved. There is a condition of faith. One must believe it!



I would love to take this on point by point, but to do that on a cell phone would just be to big of a task. So let me ask some questions.

What do we do with Ephesians 1 and 2 which clearly show that God chooses whom He will save and that we are dead and can't believe without intervening?

Or Romans 8 and 9 which clearly show that God predestines some to salvation and that He has the right to create some for destruction?

Or Hebrews 9 which shows Christ making a one time offering for the sins if those He called?

Do we toss those out?

And on top of that, you imply that God isn't sovereign. And we're called heretics Go figure.
 
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Hi JDS,

I have removed most of the quote and want to center in on two statements in support of that these statements say, if I understand them correctly as you intend for them to be understood.

Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else, God says.

Galatians 3:8 supports your view. I Peter 1:2 support your view.

In both cases the Calvinist camp must manipulate and redefine words to prop up the table whose legs are labeled T U L I P. Each leg having its own letter is without support with perhaps one exception, that being the P. However, for now the focus in on extent of saving grace which is received by faith coming from the individual. They wrongly focus on extent verses result. Result comes from people freely receiving whereas extent is a forced outcome of a select few to heaven and the most to hell.

Galatians tells us that God foresaw Abraham believe and justified Abraham because of his faith.

God saw Abraham before he was born at the time in which he believed the data God gave him concerning his call and promise. Knowing in eternity that Abraham would freely believe and leave Ur and follow God’s information was foreseen in God’s ever present now, thus Abram was saved on the bases of foreknowledge. Abraham was elected in eternity on the basis of God foreseeing / foreknowing that Abraham would freely believe.


There is no trick to this and there are no exceptions of men and there is no condition of a previous election to be saved. There is a condition of faith. One must believe it!
 
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Hammster

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Hi JDS,



I have removed most of the quote and want to center in on two statements in support of that these statements say, if I understand them correctly as you intend for them to be understood.



To make that stick you will have to go through OT and show that God knowing someone only means the He knows their actions.
 
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Galatians 3:8 is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, instructions etc.

It is clear what it says and what it means. It is a direct reference to OT. It tells me exactly what God did.

The hermeneutic you employ is apposed to Gal. 3:8. Connivance is not an option in any hermeneutic principle. If the principle defies truth it is worthless.

I challenge you to hold on to that hermeneutic and apply it across the board to all your theology. If you do this you will be out in space wondering because it can not be used or maintained.

All Scripture is profitable for teaching……, does not mean that a hermeneutic contrary to truth is valid.

In other words your use of your hermeneutic in this case applied to all NT passages would force us to view the world in the hidden eyes of OT saints. We have a fuller understanding now whereas they did not. The revelation of the NT explains in a more clearer understanding what is happening and written in the OT.

Your hermeneutic would reverse this and as such invalidate the NT if you apply it in all cases across the board.

This is another point in the Calvinistic approach to force the NT to say what it does not.

Parenthetically speaking here: Do you like Mexican food? This is not related to the subject at hand. The reason I ask is because I was just wondering if you did or not. I do like Mexican food. We have one of the best Mexican Restaurants in the world here in the state of Alabama, called Rosie’s Cantina. I will take a short break form this discourse and enjoy a Rosie’s with my lovely wife and daughter. I am praying that Rosie’s will have a restaurant in the millennial kingdom and that as a glorified saint I will still be able to eat food and enjoy it. Wouldn’t that be wonderful if I could eat all I wanted and never get fat? I know that is as far fetched as is the hermeneutic you employ. I just had to do that.
 
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Hammster

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Galatians 3:8 is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, instructions etc.



It is clear what it says and what it means. It is a direct reference to OT. It tells me exactly what God did.



You are going to have to explain that one because you're getting way more out of that than I am.
 
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Hismessenger

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I will ask, what is the purpose of a plan if you are constantly changing that plan to meet circumstances. This is not the way of God. He set forth a plan and all creation is following that plan. Whether man understands it or not because it isn't just about man but the entire creation. He isn't adjusting anything that He planned and it is going just as He predestined it to be.

HE IS GOD AND MAKES NO MISTAKES NOR HAS TO CHANGE ANY PART OF HIS PLAN BECAUSE HE DOES NOTHING WRONG.
 
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The effects of extreme Calvinism - trying to tap into the universal mind
 

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drstevej

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Reasons to be an Arminian

1. If getting saved once was great, Arminians get to get saved over and over and over...

2. Most of the world believes in free will so even atheists have your back on this point.

3. You get to make the eternal difference and God can't stop ya!

4. When (if) you get to Heaven you lose your free will and finally don't have to sweat hanging on to Jesus by your fingernails.

5. Calvinist caricatures are fun to paint.

7. Daisies have more petals than tulips. More fun to play the He loves me, He loves me not game. Those darn 5 petal tulips always end up with He loves me... boring!
 
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