Calvinism Refuted

[JDS]

Okay, JDS, since you seem willing, let me ask you the question nobody else seems to want to answer. You use 1 John 2:2 to say that Jesus died for the whole world. So if Jesus gave Himself as a propitiation abduction satisfied God's wrath against sin, why is He sending people to Hell? What sin is left to be punished for?

Jesus Christ was made sin for us, who knew no sin and the world was reconciled to God. God punished his own son for the sins of the whole world. It is apponited unto man once to die and after this the judgment. Now, men are called upon to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. God is not imputing anyones sins to him. He says it like this:

2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God is not imputing their sins unto them. Let me say it another way. God is not adding their sin to their account.

Why can you not see the type in the Law. The offering on the mercy seat once a year atoned for all Israel but never were all Israel saved. But God's wrath and judgment against their sin was appeased by the blood. How much more will the blood of Jesus Christ appease the wrath of God against sinners.

He has appointed a time when he will judge the world by Jesus Christ and will destroy every last sinner out of it.

Reconciliation is a two way street. God has been reconciled to man by Christ and now men must be reconciled to God through Christ and that happens when they believe.

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

God is not judging any man since the cross. He did not intevene in the worst massacres of history, even when it was against his own people, the Jews. God does not imputed sin that has been atoned for in the blood of Christ. He will judge men if they die unreconciled and they will go to hell.

 

[Hismessenger]

This statement was made in one of the earlier post on this thread.

Christ comes into the world as the new Adam and representative of humanity. Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were MADE sinners, so as by the obedience of one (Christ) many shall be MADE righteous."

The answer to the question which must be asked in regard to this statement was when was Christ ordained to do the thing He did. Was He not predestined to be the Saviour of a fallen world long before the creation fell?

Think about what it is that is being said. We are created for His purpose. both good and evil are for him in His purpose. The truth of Christ's manifestation in the creation was for and to the glory of God. Not man's salvation. It was a by product of the glory God received from Christ for His willingness to follow the will of His father. Showing the authority of God in the earth. There is a song which says, it's not about us. This is so great a truth that most will not believe it because of their lack of true understanding.

Christ said, Father I have glorifed you, This was the real purpose for His being ordained before the foundations of the world. To show forth God's glory as we who are called by His name are also suppose to do.

hismessenger

 

[Hammster]

Jesus Christ was made sin for us, who knew no sin and the world was reconciled to God. God punished his own son for the sins of the whole world. It is apponited unto man once to die and after this the judgment. Now, men are called upon to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. God is not imputing anyones sins to him. He says it like this:



2Co 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;



19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



Because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God is not imputing their sins unto them. Let me say it another way. God is not adding their sin to their account.



Why can you not see the type in the Law. The offering on the mercy seat once a year atoned for all Israel but never were all Israel saved. But God's wrath and judgment against their sin was appeased by the blood. How much more will the blood of Jesus Christ appease the wrath of God against sinners.



He has appointed a time when he will judge the world by Jesus Christ and will destroy every last sinner out of it.



Reconciliation is a two way street. God has been reconciled to man by Christ and now men must be reconciled to God through Christ and that happens when they believe.



Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



God is not judging any man since the cross. He did not intevene in the worst massacres of history, even when it was against his own people, the Jews. God does not imputed sin that has been atoned for in the blood of Christ. He will judge men if they die unreconciled and they will go to hell.

You seem to understand propitiation, but you don't seem to want to apply it. God's wrath against sinners is gone, if we use your interpretation.

Plus, in v.1, Jesus is our advocate if we sin. So is He advocating for the lost, too? John says that we have an advocate if we sin. Who is the 'we'? The believers, the saved. Not the lost. On what grounds does He advocate? On the grounds that He satisfied God's wrath against the saved, and not only the saved, the 'we' he is writing to, but those whom He died for all over the world.

 

[JDS]

You seem to understand propitiation, but you don't seem to want to apply it. God's wrath against sinners is gone, if we use your interpretation.

No! It is not gone. That is not the meaning of propitiation. God, the judge of all the earth, has a day in which he will judge sinners. He has told us about it in the prophets since about 900 BC, and he has kept this impending judgment before us even in the NT and that day has not come yet. It is called "the day of the Lord" and the phrase is used 30 times in scripture and every time it is used, it is imminent and it is a dark day of wrath in it's immediate context.

Plus, in v.1, Jesus is our advocate if we sin. So is He advocating for the lost, too? John says that we have an advocate if we sin. Who is the 'we'? The believers, the saved. Not the lost. On what grounds does He advocate? On the grounds that He satisfied God's wrath against the saved, and not only the saved, the 'we' he is writing to, but those whom He died for all over the world.

The "we" are the "little children" whom he addresses in this book. They are saved Jews as opposed to saved gentiles. This epistle was written by John the apostle in about AD 92, some 30 years after the dispersion of Israel. It is a Jewish Christian epistle. When he says "we" have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous, who will advocate for us when we sin because he says that he is the propitiation for the sins of the little children, and not limited to us, but also for the sins of the whole world. One can not preach limited propitiation from these verses.

If you want to read what God said to gentiles, you must read the apostle Paul's writing. He wrote 13 epistles, nine to churches, and 4 to individuals. He said he was the apostle to the gentiles and he says this:

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

And this:

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

And this:

21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

If you do not make these distinctions and have some understanding of God's ways, methods, and thoughts, you will be confused. God knows how to speak. He said in 1 John that Jesus Christ was the propitiation for sins, not to them only, but for the sins of the whole world. This means everyone, saved and lost.

God used the phrase "whole world" 11 times in scripture. Below are all those times. In each of them, the whole world means the whole world.

Job 34:13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
Mt 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mt 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.
Mr 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mr 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.
Lu 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Re 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Propitiation is used in these 3 places:

Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Advocate is used once but the Greek word is translated 4 times as Comforter and is applied as the Holy Spirit. He is an advocate only for the redeemed!

 

[cygnusx1]

God cannot condemn any for whom Christ died -

“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,” Romans 8:34.


Our Lord Jesus will have every one for whom He died because the just result of His death before God is the redemption, justification, sanctification, and adoption of His people, 1 Corinthians 1:30.


“Justice cannot twice demand, first at my Surety’s hand and then again at mine.”

 

[JDS]

God cannot condemn any for whom Christ died -

“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,” Romans 8:34.


Our Lord Jesus will have every one for whom He died because the just result of His death before God is the redemption, justification, sanctification, and adoption of His people, 1 Corinthians 1:30.


“Justice cannot twice demand, first at my Surety’s hand and then again at mine.”

That reasoning comes from the human heart. It does not come from the scriptures.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. ( My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous 1Jn1:1)



Who are the elect and how did they get that way?

1) They are the children of God:

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

How did they get to be children of God?

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

How did the Spirit change those that have him?

Ro 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Is there limited language in Romans 8 concerning who can posess the Spirit? No!

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

So, the elect are the children of God, born of the Spirit into his family, with Christ as the head, the firstborn!

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

It is the Spirit that raised him from the dead and gacve him life according to the Scriptures:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Spirit is the means by which MEN becomes sons of God.

PHYSICAL BIRTH
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

SPIRITUAL BIRTH
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead)

Who can receive the Spirit abnd be born again?

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

If the Spirit is life?

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

How do we receive the son?


Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat (The Spirit is God) loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The language of the Calvinists does not match these verses. For instance!

Ro 8:11 But if theSpirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The "if" would be a "when" in verse 11.

Calvinists teaches that a predestined person cannot ever be ultimately lost and an unelected person can never be saved. Therefore, verse 11 should say when instead of if, to be consistent.

 

[MamaZ]

Men do not elect God.. God elects His believers and not only does He choose them He calls them and He justifies them and He glorifies them. Men do not call themselves, they do not elect themselves they do not justify themselves nor do they glorify themselves.. God does all of this.

 

[Hammster]

I think what is happening, JDS, is that you are trying to make scripture conform to your theology instead of vice versa. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

1. You have to quit citing single verses. I would suggest going to STR.org and requesting a booklet entitled "Never Read a Single Verse Again". Very helpful.

2. You need to understand that propitiation satisfies God's wrath. If His wrath was poured out on Christ for all, and satisfied in Christ, then there is no more wrath to pour out either now, or in the future.

3. In 1 John 2:1-2! Jesus is the advocate for saved sinners because He is the propitiation for those sinners. If He is the propitiation for the whole world, in the sense you take it, then He has to be an advocate for the lost as well. It is one sentence with one thought, not two sentences with two thoughts.

4. Jesus not only shed His blood, but as High Priest He administered His blood. Read Hebrews 9:11 and following.

 

[cygnusx1]

God cannot condemn any for whom Christ died -

“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,” Romans 8:34.


Our Lord Jesus will have every one for whom He died because the just result of His death before God is the redemption, justification, sanctification, and adoption of His people, 1 Corinthians 1:30.


“Justice cannot twice demand, first at my Surety’s hand and then again at mine.”

 

[Hammster]

God cannot condemn any for whom Christ died -



“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,” Romans 8:34.





Our Lord Jesus will have every one for whom He died because the just result of His death before God is the redemption, justification, sanctification, and adoption of His people, 1 Corinthians 1:30.





“Justice cannot twice demand, first at my Surety’s hand and then again at mine.”

I thought he was making an argument for Calvinism at first.

 

[cygnusx1]

I thought he was making an argument for Calvinism at first.

no he hates it , i reckon he searches for new arguments every day , all are easily refuted .

 

[JDS]

I think what is happening, JDS, is that you are trying to make scripture conform to your theology instead of vice versa. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

1. You have to quit citing single verses. I would suggest going to STR.org and requesting a booklet entitled "Never Read a Single Verse Again". Very helpful.

2. You need to understand that propitiation satisfies God's wrath. If His wrath was poured out on Christ for all, and satisfied in Christ, then there is no more wrath to pour out either now, or in the future.

3. In 1 John 2:1-2! Jesus is the advocate for saved sinners because He is the propitiation for those sinners. If He is the propitiation for the whole world, in the sense you take it, then He has to be an advocate for the lost as well. It is one sentence with one thought, not two sentences with two thoughts.

4. Jesus not only shed His blood, but as High Priest He administered His blood. Read Hebrews 9:11 and following.

You obviously consider propitiation to be forgiveness. It is not! The wrath of God is still reality, but not for the saved. The redeemed will be delivered from the wrath to come. The redeemed are the children of God, not through election, but through faith and the new birth. This truth is constantly before us in scripture and I suspect that you and those like you are willing to misrepresent clear and plain teaching on the subject of salvation because of preconceptions and frankly, because you just don't believe them.

I just dealt with this truth in Romans 8, dealing with the Spirit in the chapter, and you immediately accuse me of one verse hermeneutics. How can I deal with this kind of lack of perception of the discussion? Sometimes my mind is blown this kind of reasoning.

I have not seen you present a case for your beliefs. Yours seems to be more about what you do not believe.

 

[MamaZ]

You obviously consider propitiation to be forgiveness. It is not! The wrath of God is still reality, but not for the saved. The redeemed will be delivered from the wrath to come. The redeemed are the children of God, not through election, but through faith and the new birth. This truth is constantly before us in scripture and I suspect that you and those like you are willing to misrepresent clear and plain teaching on the subject of salvation because of preconceptions and frankly, because you just don't believe them.

I just dealt with this truth in Romans 8, dealing with the Spirit in the chapter, and you immediately accuse me of one verse hermeneutics. How can I deal with this kind of lack of perception of the discussion? Sometimes my mind is blown this kind of reasoning.

It is through this divine Grace that God calls those whom he predesined .. The gifts and callings are of God.. Not mens choice. God calls out the elect and they hear His voice and they follow Him.. They know His voice.. Other sheep will not come for they know not His voice..

 

[JDS]

It is through this divine Grace that God calls those whom he predesined ..

Chapter and verse please!

 

[MamaZ]

Chapter and verse please!

1Co 1:18 For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it has been written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the understanding ones." Isa. 29:14
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where the scribe? Where the lawyer of this world? Did God not make the wisdom of this world foolish?
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save the ones believing.
1Co 1:22 And since Jews ask for a sign, and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 we, on the other hand, preach Christ crucified (truly an offense to Jews, and foolishness to Greeks),
1Co 1:24 but to the called out ones, both to Jews and to Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God;
1Co 1:25 because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brothers, that there are not many wise according to flesh, nor many powerful, not many wellborn.
1Co 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world that the wise might be put to shame, and God chose the weak things of the world so that He might put to shame the strong things.
1Co 1:28 And God chose the low-born of the world, and the despised, and the things that are not, so that He might bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh might glory in His presence.
1Co 1:30 But of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that even as it has been written, "He that glories, let him glory in" the "Lord." Jer. 9:24

 

[MamaZ]

The elect are called of God.. Human beings have no rights over God nor against God..

 

[cygnusx1]

You obviously consider propitiation to be forgiveness. It is not! The wrath of God is still reality, but not for the saved. The redeemed will be delivered from the wrath to come. The redeemed are the children of God, not through election, but through faith and the new birth. This truth is constantly before us in scripture and I suspect that you and those like you are willing to misrepresent clear and plain teaching on the subject of salvation because of preconceptions and frankly, because you just don't believe them.

I just dealt with this truth in Romans 8, dealing with the Spirit in the chapter, and you immediately accuse me of one verse hermeneutics. How can I deal with this kind of lack of perception of the discussion? Sometimes my mind is blown this kind of reasoning.

it's no good bypassing election , election is unto salvation through faith and sanctification of the spirit , and YES God's wrath has been appeased , certainly not for everyone , but only for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8) , who are those IN Christ ?

Eph 1 tells us the elect are all (have been) chosen in Christ Jesus ; repeat , when do we get in Christ ? We are in Christ from before the foundation of the world , blessed in him before creation , and prior to ANY baptism you or I partook of , we died with Christ , yes 2000 years ago God's Just anger , wrath and hatred of sin fell upon Christ AND THE ELECT , He became sin for us , sin was condemned on the cross , and we died in/with Christ ... right back then!

The safest land that exists when a fire goes out of control , burning everything in it's path is land that has already been BURNED!

The redeemed will be delivered from the wrath to come.

Christians do not wait until judgment day to be free from God's wrath , There is NOW , no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus .

 

[beloved57]

Chapter and verse please!

Why ? you dont believe scripture anyway..all you do is reject truth..you show us a chapter and verse that denies what she posted..now you do that !

 

[beloved57]

1Co 1:18 For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it has been written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the understanding ones." Isa. 29:14
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where the scribe? Where the lawyer of this world? Did God not make the wisdom of this world foolish?
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save the ones believing.
1Co 1:22 And since Jews ask for a sign, and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 we, on the other hand, preach Christ crucified (truly an offense to Jews, and foolishness to Greeks),
1Co 1:24 but to the called out ones, both to Jews and to Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God;
1Co 1:25 because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brothers, that there are not many wise according to flesh, nor many powerful, not many wellborn.
1Co 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world that the wise might be put to shame, and God chose the weak things of the world so that He might put to shame the strong things.
1Co 1:28 And God chose the low-born of the world, and the despised, and the things that are not, so that He might bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh might glory in His presence.
1Co 1:30 But of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that even as it has been written, "He that glories, let him glory in" the "Lord." Jer. 9:24

mama, good post, but the objector really needs more than that, they need to be first given a spiritual capacity to recieve the truth..they will reject these verses and or twist and shred them vicously, but its a good post,,

 

[MamaZ]

Men do not do things to deserve Gods grace.. It is freely given to those whom God calls out as His own.