Calvinism Refuted

[cygnusx1]

the use of means is imperative to the outcome . Predestination is not willy nilly it is inclusive of means ...... USE of MEANS , say that a dozen times

 

[JDS]

If you did not believe God concerning the Lord Jesus Christ then you are not saved. It is as simple as that.

If you say that men cannot be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, then you are preaching another gospel. This is serious and it is not good news.

If you say that men cannot believe unless they are born again first, you are confusing the message of the bible and you are preaching a false gospel that you have no scripture for.

4 But after (Not before, but after) that the kindness and love of God our Saviour (That would be Jesus Christ) toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness (This, works, is the subjective testimony of Calvinists for their salvation) which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (This would have been an excellent place for him to have said by his election, he saved us, but he did not), (How Did he save us) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (He saved us BY this, he did not save us TO this)
6 Which (The Holy Ghost) he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (This is future tense: Final salvation at the rapture)

Justification has two sides - God's and man's! Both are through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Here is how faith works with grace!

Ro 5:2 By whom (Jesus Christ) also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Now, notice this!

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he (Abraham) should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:16 Therefore [it (Righteousness) is] of faith, that [it (Righteousness) might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Faith is the common denominator for righteousness across dispensatiuonal lines)

Did anyone get that? Righteousness is by faith so it might be by grace instead of works in the context.

Paul wrote these things in Rom 4 and 5 and he totally agrees with himself in Eph.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (Righteousness = his faith) was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it (Righteousness)shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

There is simply no reason for grown men with high IQ's to get this wrong! The truth of justification by faith in Jesus Christ is written in so simple of words that one must make a sincere effort to deny many things that are given us in order to come to the conclusions that God will not save people because he has not chosen them beforehand.

Calvinism is a far more serious problem for the Christian church than just a mere disagreement between Christians, I think.

 

[JacobHall86]

I don't see that he was promoting universalism, he was just refuting Calvinism.

Quite effectively, I would say, not that it is difficult!

Its been around since the OT, so I would say you need to step it up if you want to refute Calvinism. The idea of Election and Predestination has not only all over the Gospels and epistles, but the OT as well.

 

[Hammster]

JDS, let's just say, for sake of argument, that you are right; that you exegeted that perfectly. You say that Christ died to make everybody saveable; His death provides the option of salvation to all if they are just smart enough to believe.

Then what do you do with the Aborigines in Australia, the natives of North America, those in Eastern Asia, who lived before Christ was even born? How did salvation come to them?

 

[nobdysfool]

JDS, let's just say, for sake of argument, that you are right; that you exegeted that perfectly. You say that Christ died to make everybody saveable; His death provides the option of salvation to all if they are just smart enough to believe.

Then what do you do with the Aborigines in Australia, the natives of North America, those in Eastern Asia, who lived before Christ was even born? How did salvation come to them?

If I may interject, the usual solution given is that God saved them by extra-Christological means, thereby establishing another way to Salvation, apart from the Gospel, which completely puts the lie to Christ's own words: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; NO MAN comes to the Father, but by Me."

In order to uphold their "free will", "man is not spiritually dead, only spiritually sick", "all men have the native ability to choose Christ" heresy, they remove the pre-eminence of the Gospel, and replace it with man's supposed free will, a self-actuated Salvation which is in itself another gospel, and not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They destroy the very thing they think to uphold.

 

[JDS]

JDS, let's just say, for sake of argument, that you are right; that you exegeted that perfectly. You say that Christ died to make everybody saveable; His death provides the option of salvation to all if they are just smart enough to believe.

Then what do you do with the Aborigines in Australia, the natives of North America, those in Eastern Asia, who lived before Christ was even born? How did salvation come to them?

Today, those of the physical seed of Abraham, commonly called Jews, are largely in unbelief concerning things about Jesus Christ and salvation. The reason they are in unbelief is because of the national leaders and their reaction to his claims when he came to them about 2000 years ago. You may read about it in Mt 1:1 through Acts 7 where he addressed this nation and provided his Messianic credentials through the testimony of John the Baptist, the Scriptures, the voice of God, and the miracles performed in his name. They rejected him and the evidence and they spoke for the nation.

So, lets review: Why are the Jews in unbelief today? Yes! It was because the national leaders rejected his claims.

But what about the peoples you mentioned?

We have the apostolic commission in Mat 28, Mk 16, Lk 24, and Acts 1. These men were charged to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. By AD 60 when Paul wrote his epistle to the Colossian church, he decalred the mission was accomplished and the good news of the resurrection of Jesus Christ had been preached to every creature under heaven, and this statement has the infallibility and inspiration of a thrice Holy God to back it up. Though a man may not understand how it was accomplised, we are told it was in this statement here:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Co 1:23

These kind of statements are simple and easy to be understood, but they are hard to believe simply because it is beyond our reasoning. But there it is! Every creature had the gospel preached unto them with the qualifying statement "under heaven". You cannot be anywhere on earth without being under heaven.

So, the nations are without excuse but the church of Jesus Christ, who have his love shed abroad in their hearts, can go to those peoples and give them the gospel individually because faith cometh by hearing the word of God, and they cannot hear without a preacher. If they believe they will be saved. That is the promise of God! It has nothing to do with being pre-selected.

The only way for men to be saved is through faith in Jesus Christ. Men are lost because they have not believed, Jn 3:18, not because they are not elect. Someone in the past made a decision about Jesus Christ that has affected this present generation and the gospel of Jesus Christ has not been preached in these countries and by these creatures. Paul said "if you continue in the faith". These people did not and so we have a world full of lost sinners and no one to preach to them that Jesus Christ saves all who will come to him, having heard about his great sacrifice in our place, and for us.

We do have an ungodly movement that says most of the world cannot be saved with or without the gospel because God has created them for the day of destruction, and he hates them whom he does not save.

 

[Hammster]

That was a very long non-answer. Read the question.

 

[nobdysfool]

Today, those of the physical seed of Abraham, commonly called Jews, are largely in unbelief concerning things about Jesus Christ and salvation. The reason they are in unbelief is because of the national leaders and their reaction to his claims when he came to them about 2000 years ago. You may read about it in Mt 1:1 through Acts 7 where he addressed this nation and provided his Messianic credentials through the testimony of John the Baptist, the Scriptures, the voice of God, and the miracles performed in his name. They rejected him and the evidence and they spoke for the nation.

So, lets review: Why are the Jews in unbelief today? Yes! It was because the national leaders rejected his claims.

But what about the peoples you mentioned?

We have the apostolic commission in Mat 28, Mk 16, Lk 24, and Acts 1. These men were charged to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. By AD 60 when Paul wrote his epistle to the Colossian church, he decalred the mission was accomplished and the good news of the resurrection of Jesus Christ had been preached to every creature under heaven, and this statement has the infallibility and inspiration of a thrice Holy God to back it up. Though a man may not understand how it was accomplised, we are told it was in this statement here:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Co 1:23

These kind of statements are simple and easy to be understood, but they are hard to believe simply because it is beyond our reasoning. But there it is! Every creature had the gospel preached unto them with the qualifying statement "under heaven". You cannot be anywhere on earth without being under heaven.

So, the nations are without excuse but the church of Jesus Christ, who have his love shed abroad in their hearts, can go to those peoples and give them the gospel individually because faith cometh by hearing the word of God, and they cannot hear without a preacher. If they believe they will be saved. That is the promise of God! It has nothing to do with being pre-selected.

The only way for men to be saved is through faith in Jesus Christ. Men are lost because they have not believed, Jn 3:18, not because they are not elect. Someone in the past made a decision about Jesus Christ that has affected this present generation and the gospel of Jesus Christ has not been preached in these countries and by these creatures. Paul said "if you continue in the faith". These people did not and so we have a world full of lost sinners and no one to preach to them that Jesus Christ saves all who will come to him, having heard about his great sacrifice in our place, and for us.

We do have an ungodly movement that says most of the world cannot be saved with or without the gospel because God has created them for the day of destruction, and he hates them whom he does not save.

The idea that the personal decisions of some nameless individuals 2000 years ago can affect people now, and prevent them from hearing the Gospel and responding to it, actually completely destroys your free will, man-centered idea that all men have the natural ability to believe the Gospel upon hearing it. Such an idea is ridiculous! Each person individually is responsible for their own sins, and those who have not been regenerated, and believed the gospel, are still in their sins, period.

calling Calvinism ungodly, because you don't agree with it, points to your ignorance of what Calvinism actually teaches, and to your ignorance of what the Bible teaches concerning sin, the Atonement, and Justification. You clearly do not know of what you so confidently speak, as though your word were the be-all and end-all of the discussion. You have great need of being taught correctly.

 

[JDS]

That was a very long non-answer. Read the question.

Then what do you do with the Aborigines in Australia, the natives of North America, those in Eastern Asia, who lived before Christ was even born? How did salvation come to them?

_____________-----

Okay, I gave you the answer for those since Christ. No one is saved before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ because that is the only way for any man at any time to be saved. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission, we are told. However,all those before then were justified by believing God. That is, they were required to believe only what God revealed to them and they were justified by their faith. Their faith was imputed to them for righteousness. This is the message of Rom 4.

 

[JDS]

The idea that the personal decisions of some nameless individuals 2000 years ago can affect people now, and prevent them from hearing the Gospel and responding to it, actually completely destroys your free will, man-centered idea that all men have the natural ability to believe the Gospel upon hearing it. Such an idea is ridiculous! Each person individually is responsible for their own sins, and those who have not been regenerated, and believed the gospel, are still in their sins, period.

Those who have heard the gospel and have not believed are not regenerated. They are not regenerated because they have not believed. If they believe they will be regenerated by the Spirit of God, who indwells them and gives them life. You are reading Calvinism into every passage and the passages all refute such a doctrine.

calling Calvinism ungodly, because you don't agree with it, points to your ignorance of what Calvinism actually teaches, and to your ignorance of what the Bible teaches concerning sin, the Atonement, and Justification. You clearly do not know of what you so confidently speak, as though your word were the be-all and end-all of the discussion. You have great need of being taught correctly.

I do not call it ungodly because I don't agree with it, but because the scriptures do not agree with it.

God so loved the world
Christ died for the ungodly
Jesus Christ put away sin by his sacrifice of himself
He propitiated God for the sins of the whole world by his blood
Christ died to save sinners
He died for every man
He died for the unjust

You disagree with all these statement though they are plainly stated in scripture. This is what I call unbelief. If you do not believe something plainly stated, then it is called unbelief. If you must change it or parse it to make it agree with your take, then this is call not believing it the way it is stated.

I believe the statements above just like they are written. I am not an unbeliever!

 

[Hammster]

Then what do you do with the Aborigines in Australia, the natives of North America, those in Eastern Asia, who lived before Christ was even born? How did salvation come to them?



_____________-----



Okay, I gave you the answer for those since Christ. No one is saved before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ because that is the only way for any man at any time to be saved. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission, we are told. However,all those before then were justified by believing God. That is, they were required to believe only what God revealed to them and they were justified by their faith. Their faith was imputed to them for righteousness. This is the message of Rom 4.

Seems like it was a lot easier to Ba saved before Christ. And those poor Israelites...all those rules and blood and stuff..

 

[JDS]

Seems like it was a lot easier to Ba saved before Christ. And those poor Israelites...all those rules and blood and stuff..

Thank God for them. Now we know much more about God because of them.

However, none of those Israelites were justified by the law. If they were justified, they were justified by faith.

Here is the example of a man under the law that God chose to illustrate this point.

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The faith of the believer is imputed to him for righteousness and it is God that imputes it. If a man is counted righteous by the judge, he is no longer guilty or he would not be righteous. However, it is the blood of Jesus Christ which washes the sin away.

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[nobdysfool]

God so loved the world
Christ died for the ungodly
Jesus Christ put away sin by his sacrifice of himself
He propitiated God for the sins of the whole world by his blood
Christ died to save sinners
He died for every man
He died for the unjust

You disagree with all these statement though they are plainly stated in scripture. This is what I call unbelief. If you do not believe something plainly stated, then it is called unbelief. If you must change it or parse it to make it agree with your take, then this is call not believing it the way it is stated.

I believe the statements above just like they are written. I am not an unbeliever!

You believe them with the spin you have put on them, whether you believe so or not. I believe what I see scripture saying. I believe scripture. but what you say it says does not always square with what it says. Where you are correct, I will agree with you. Where you are wrong, I will not. the real issue here is your over-arching hatred of Calvinism as a whole, when you clearly show you don't rightly understand what Calvinist Theology actually teaches. You are attacking what you imagine to be Calvinism, and refuse to consider that you are actually missing your target. You insult, denigrate and belittle Calvinists, and then wonder why you get so much flak back from them for the statements you make.

If you actually made a substantive argument against an accurately defined tenet of Calvinism, then we could proceed to have an actual discussion about it. But as long as you declare or hint that Calvinists are unbelievers, heretics, unsaved, and whatever else you can come up with to insult, denigrate, and belittle, you will get exactly the degree of respect to which such bile and vitriol are entitled, which is ZERO respect. IMHO you have zero credibility, because you have not, and cannot accurately define even one simple tenet of Calvinism to make a case against.

I don't waste time with straw men, other than to point them out, and call out the one erecting them.

 

[JDS]

You believe them with the spin you have put on them, whether you believe so or not. I believe what I see scripture saying. I believe scripture. but what you say it says does not always square with what it says.

God so loved the world Jn 3:16
Christ died for the ungodly Ro 5:6
Jesus Christ put away sin by his sacrifice of himself He 9:26
He propitiated God for the sins of the whole world by his blood 1 Jn 2:2
Christ died to save sinners 1 ti 1:15
He died for every man He 2:9
He died for the unjust 1 Pe 3:18
​

I accept these sayings without alteration and just as written. I do not need to interpret them so they will agree with my logic.

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

How could the sovereign God lose the elect?
​

 

[cygnusx1]

​

How could the sovereign God lose the elect?
​

by design , der !

 

[nobdysfool]

God so loved the world Jn 3:16
Christ died for the ungodly Ro 5:6
Jesus Christ put away sin by his sacrifice of himself He 9:26
He propitiated God for the sins of the whole world by his blood 1 Jn 2:2
Christ died to save sinners 1 ti 1:15
He died for every man He 2:9
He died for the unjust 1 Pe 3:18
​

I accept these sayings without alteration and just as written. I do not need to interpret them so they will agree with my logic.

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

How could the sovereign God lose the elect?
​

Ah, but you don't believe any individual is elect, only Christ. so your question is meaningless.

Interesting that you only selectively reply. Can't handle the rest?

 

[Hammster]

How could a sovereign God seek for something and not find it?

 

[JDS]

How could a sovereign God seek for something and not find it?

He would have to lose it first. Then he would find it. When Jesus was here on the earth he did find it. It was a hid treasure. The treasure was hid in the field, so he went and sold all he had and bought the field where the treasure was.

Now follow me here!

Mt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


The treasure:
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Ps 135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

The Field:
Mt 13:38 The field is the world;


The Plan:
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.


The price:
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

The joy:
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The extent of the payment:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, JDS, since you seem willing, let me ask you the question nobody else seems to want to answer. You use 1 John 2:2 to say that Jesus died for the whole world. So if Jesus gave Himself as a propitiation abduction satisfied God's wrath against sin, why is He sending people to Hell? What sin is left to be punished for?

 

[drstevej]

He would have to lose it first.

An omniscient God losing things.

Makes perfect sense.
I am enthralled.