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Calvinism Refuted

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nobdysfool

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It does take a fair amount of reading comprehension, and language skill, to properly comprehend what one reads, especially from the Bible. We see the result of many who read with preconceived notions, and delusions of grandeur when it comes to the attempted "defeat" and "refutation" of Calvinism.
 
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chestertonrules

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untrue , assumptions cost nothing , you should be a Calvinist for a Month before this type of post .


i always think everyone should be that person ; fat , black , homosexual , poor etc for a Month before judging.

Given that Hammster, and I imagine all 5 points Calvinists, just stated that only God saves a person AND that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation or the salvation of anyone else, I think my premise is on solid ground.

However, I'm willing to listen.

Where is my error?
 
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chestertonrules

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Funny that I have never had a Catholic witness to me. I guess I had better move to a poor desolate hell hole. And that whole Evangelism Explosion must have been some sort of made up stuff.

Let me try asking this again and maybe I can get an answer this time.

God is omniscient and knows all things including who will be saved and who won't (from either point of view). Whether He looks down the corridor of time and sees who will accept Him, or whether He chooses for Himself a people to believe. Can we agree on that? Good.

So in God's mind, those who will accept Him is a done deal and nothing can change that. So why witness? If God has seen who will accept Him, and since He is omniscient nothing can change that, why should you witness?

God sees from the other end of time. We don't.

I believe that God sees and judges our actions.

He gives us the grace to follow his will, and he knows who will, but he isn't the one making our decisions.

We should witness because our actions matter.

Here's some food for thought:

James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".
 
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Hammster

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Given that Hammster, and I imagine all 5 points Calvinists, just stated that only God saves a person AND that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation or the salvation of anyone else, I think my premise is on solid ground.



However, I'm willing to listen.



Where is my error?



Do you not understand the ways/means argument, or do you just disagree with it?
 
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chestertonrules

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Do you not understand the ways/means argument, or do you just disagree with it?


I understand it as a retrospective attempt to save Calvinism from one of many Logical deficiencies.

I don't find it substantial enough to disagree with.:p
 
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Hammster

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I understand it as a retrospective attempt to save Calvinism from one of many Logical deficiencies.



I don't find it substantial enough to disagree with.:p



Isn't the Great Commission Jesus dictating the means to accomplish spreading the gospel?
 
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chestertonrules

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Isn't the Great Commission Jesus dictating the means to accomplish spreading the gospel?


Absolutely.

Doesn't the Great Commission require human actions and decision making?

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
 
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Hammster

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Absolutely.



Doesn't the Great Commission require human actions and decision making?



19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."



lol. I actually forget what we are discussing. I think I will shut it down and pick back up in the morning.
 
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JDS

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Not really, unless you are prepared to use that same reasoning for every word.


What does it mean in this passage?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Ro 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Think of the ramifications of these verses if death meant total inability.
 
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beloved57

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How do you go about leading someone to Christ?

I evangelize by preaching the gospel of Gods grace, if they are elect, the Holy Ghost leadis them to Jesus christ..thats His Job..jn 16:

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The word guide there is the greek word:
hodēgeō:
to be a guide, lead on one's way, to guide
2) to be a guide or a teacher
a) to give guidance to

it is translated lead also as in matt 15:

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

rev 7:

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So the Holy Ghost leads the elect sinner into the truth of the word of God and shews him or her Jesus christ, that is causes them to believe in Him, produces faith in him..

Now, the next point is this, its not Gods will that all evangelism is purposed to lead people to Jesus christ, but to lead them to confirmation of their reprobation..i.e God sends preachers to harden the reprobate through their preaching..isa 6

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Thats why paul said that the gospel is a two edged sword, its a savour of life unto life, and savour of death unto death, for either determination, is in line with Gods eternal purpose in christ Jesus..

Jesus said himself, his coming was two fold, people oft overlook this awesome fact..jn 9:

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

notice, for Judgment he came into this world..#1 that they which see not might see[gentiles] and that they which see [mostly all religous jews] might be made blind..

And preaching the gospel accomplishes both Divine purposes..isa 55:

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I can tell pate, you have no ideal what your doing, and that you are not called of God, to even ask a ridiculous man made religon question as you just did..
 
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beloved57

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Why should YOU witness if God, who is omniscient, knows who will accept Him and who won't.

Because God causes His preacher to witness to the truth, to show His elect their salvation and to confirm the non elect in their damnation..nothing changes one eternal destinty by witnessing the truth, that never was Gods purpose for witnessing.a non elect indiviual, God already knows the sins He is going to punish that person for before they have actual being in time..

Jesus christ died for each and every sin of all the elect, before they had a being..
 
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Hammster

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Because God causes His preacher to witness to the truth, to show His elect their salvation and to confirm the non elect in their damnation..nothing changes one eternal destinty by witnessing the truth, that never was Gods purpose for witnessing.a non elect indiviual, God already knows the sins He is going to punish that person for before they have actual being in time..



Jesus christ died for each and every sin of all the elect, before they had a being..



That question was intended for the non-Calvinists
 
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If every one is predestinated why did Jesus command his apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature? Mark 16:15. And then Jesus said in verse 16, "He that believes in me will be saved, and he that does not believe will be damned."

If everyone is predestinated why preach the Gospel at all?

The preaching of the gospel is what draws men to Christ. Jesus said, "When I am lifted up (up on the cross) I will draw all men to myself." When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is there to convict men of their need for Christ. This is how the 5000 were converted on the day of Pentecost. Peter preached the Gospel. Peter did not say that this Gospel is only for the elect. No, he said, "It shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved," Acts 2:21.

The Gospel refutes Calvinism. In the Gospel God has perfected all of humanity and has taken it to heaven. The Gospel is God's great free gift to humanity, Romans 5:18. We have been MADE complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. This Gospel is yours only when by faith you make it yours. If you don't accept it you are still in your sins.

John 1:7, The same came for a witness, of the light, thay ALL MEN through him might believe.

John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 22:15, For you shall be witnesses unto ALL MEN of what you have seen and heard.

Romans 5:12, Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:18, Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

Romans 8:32, He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up FOR US ALL, how shall he not give us all things.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15, For the love of God constraines us; because we thus judge, that if one died FOR ALL, then we are ALL dead. And he that died FOR ALL, which live should not live unto themselves.

2 Corinthians 5;19, God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto himself.

2 Corinthians 9:13, While by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection into the gospel of christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto ALL MEN.

Ephesians 3;9, And to make ALL MEN see what is the fellowship of the mystery from which from the beginning of the world was hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:4, Who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5-6, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL.

1 Timothy 4:10, For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN.

Titus 2:11, For the grace of God that brings salvation to ALL MEN.

Hebrews 2:9, But we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN.

Hebrews 10:10, But that we will have been sanctified through the offering of one body of Jesus Christ once FOR ALL.

James 1:15, If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to ALL MEN liberally.

1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

1 John 4:14, And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the WHOLE WORLD.

1 John 5:4, For whatsoever (whosoever) is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world OUR FAITH.

2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Visit: http://www.theapostlesdoctrine.com
Because it is through the word of truth that God calls His chosen. Those whom He has predestined will respond to the call of the truth of the scripture. Those whom are not chosen will not nor can not.. For it is in the foreknowldge of God that any man is chosen.. God forknew us means He set His aproval upon us His chosen.. He reconginzed us and freely chose us to be His own..
 
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beloved57

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Only those who are His will hear His voice..

The opposers of God dont believe this truth..

Jesus tells some that they cannot hear..jn 8:



43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. why ? 44Ye are of your father the devil

because they are satans seed..
 
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