Calvinism Refuted

[drstevej]

How do you go about leading someone to Christ? Oh, I forgot! No one is led to Christ by another. You tell them they are either in or they are out.

Wrong. You tell them they are sinners and that Christ died for sinners and those who repent and put their faith in Christ will be saved.


Read Whitefield sermons. Great Calvinist evangelist.

 

[Benefactor]

Funny that I have never had a Catholic witness to me. I guess I had better move to a poor desolate hell hole. And that whole Evangelism Explosion must have been some sort of made up stuff.

Let me try asking this again and maybe I can get an answer this time.

God is omniscient and knows all things including who will be saved and who won't (from either point of view). Whether He looks down the corridor of time and sees who will accept Him, or whether He chooses for Himself a people to believe. Can we agree on that? Good.

So in God's mind, those who will accept Him is a done deal and nothing can change that. So why witness? If God has seen who will accept Him, and since He is omniscient nothing can change that, why should you witness?

There is a difference:

First, The only Calvinist I know that don't evangelize are the Primitive Baptist, it there are others I do not know who they are.

Second, in theory, 5 point Calvinism, my opinion, kills evangelism. It discourages evangelism. Church growth is greater in a non Calvinist church and more people come to Christ in non Calvinist churches.

Third, the view that sees election based on foreknowledge is missionary friendly. It is witness friendly. It is Gospel friendly. Why, because God's elections is on the result of these not prior to them. Five point Calvinism has man regenerated, and then infuses the born a gain man with faith, next the man is caused to believe because he has first been regenerated so that he can get saved or regenerated again, a second work of grace, which completes the process.

It is God's method to win the lost by preaching the Gospel regretless of the method. But again the evidence is that 5PC kills church growth. Most, 5PC churches gain their members through children from present followers and proselytes from growing churches. Persons coming to Christ in 5PC churches is rare compared to evangelical none Calvinistic churches.

GS

The correct theology is called, CURED (the Tulip -5PC and the Daisy- 5PA are extremes )

 

[Hammster]

It seems that once again Mr. Pate won't answer a direct question.

 

[cygnusx1]

What if they are elect and you don't tell them anything?

then God sends someone else.

Clearly, from a Calvinist perspective, evangelization is optional,

wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

"USE OF MEANS" to be said 50 times !

UNLESS you think that your actions will impact God's choice.

of course not , His choice impacts , infuses , inspires , motivates our actions. We are the clay God is the Potter , some think God is the clay , passive and acted upon by men .... then they wonder why their God is just like themselves.

 

[Hammster]

There is a difference:



First, The only Calvinist I know that don't evangelize are the Primitive Baptist, it there are others I do not know who they are.



Second, in theory, 5 point Calvinism, my opinion, kills evangelism. It discourages evangelism. Church growth is greater in a non Calvinist church and more people come to Christ in non Calvinist churches.



Third, the view that sees election based on foreknowledge is missionary friendly. It is witness friendly. It is Gospel friendly. Why, because God's elections is on the result of these not prior to them. Five point Calvinism has man regenerated, and then infuses the born a gain man with faith, next the man is caused to believe because he has first been regenerated so that he can not get saved or regenerated again, a second work of grace, which completes the process.



It is God's method to win the lost by preaching the Gospel regretless of the method. But again the evidence is that 5PC kills church growth. Most, 5PC churches gain their members through children from present followers and proselytes from growing churches. Persons come to Christ in 5PC churches is rare compared to evangelical none Calvinistic churches.



GS



The correct theology is called, CURED (the Tulip -5PC and the Daisy- 5PA ) are extremes Bottom of Form

That was a very good non-answer. Very eloquent. And without any facts to back it up. Can you say Evangelism Explosion?

I am still waiting for an answer. If things are predetermined from you view (see my previous argument) then why should YOU witness.

 

[drstevej]

Second, in theory, 5 point Calvinism, my opinion, kills evangelism. It discourages evangelism. Church growth is greater in a non Calvinist church and more people come to Christ in non Calvinist churches.

[1] One of the greatest evangelists to ever preach in America, George Whitefield was a 5 point Calvinist. The father of the modern missions movement, William Carey was a 5 point Calvinist. Spurgeon, pastor of a "mega church" of his day, was a 5 point Calvinist.

[2] Church growth is not identical with biblical evangelism. Heretics often draw large crowds.

[3] Calvinism encourages evangelism -- as a Calvinist I know God can do what my words can not... bring life to a dead soul; as a Calvinist I know that those who are saved will spend eternity in heaven... it's gotta be a bummer for an Arminian to worry if those he gets to believe could have buyer's remorse and chuck the faith; Calvinism takes the pride out of evangelism... can't count scalps when you know it was God who did it.

 

[Robert Pate]

C'mon, now. You have to know that, in light of the discussion, that wasn't the question. So lets try again, and I will try to make it simpler.

Why should YOU witness if God, who is omniscient, knows who will accept Him and who won't. Because He is omniscient this cannot change. In God's view, it is set, or else He isn't omniscient. So why should YOU (Robert and Chester) witness?

I don't believe anything is set. There are a lot of varibles in the world. God is not bound by any laws or rules. He can change his mind if he so wills. I say preach the Gospel and let whosoever come to Christ.
I think that you want to put God in a box.

 

[drstevej]

I don't believe anything is set. There are a lot of varibles in the world. God is not bound by any laws or rules. He can change his mind if he so wills. I say preach the Gospel and let whosoever come to Christ.
I think that you want to put God in a box.

RP you do not even realize that Hammster hoisted you on your own petard.

 

[Robert Pate]

[1] One of the greatest evangelists to ever preach in America, George Whitefield was a 5 point Calvinist. The father of the modern missions movement, William Carey was a 5 point Calvinist. Spurgeon, pastor of a "mega church" of his day, was a 5 point Calvinist.

[2] Church growth is not identical with biblical evangelism. Heretics often draw large crowds.

[3] Calvinism encourages evangelism -- as a Calvinist I know God can do what my words can not... bring life to a dead soul; as a Calvinist I know that those who are saved will spend eternity in heaven... it's gotta be a bummer for an Arminian to worry if those he gets to believe could have buyer's remorse and chuck the faith; Calvinism takes the pride out of evangelism... can't count scalps when you know it was God who did it.

What about all of those scriptures that says WHOSOEVER believes upon Christ shall be saved? And then there are all of those scriptures that say that the Gospel is for ALL MEN. And what are you going to do about all of those scriptures that say the Gospel is for the WHOLE WORLD?

And then you know as well as I that a God that sends people to hell for no reason is unjust and not righteous. So tell me friend how can you have faith in this cruel God of yours. The answer is you cant.

 

[drstevej]

God sends folks to hell for a reason... siI do not have faith in a cruel God. God is holy and just.

So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him."

So much for world meaning every individual who ever lived.

All who believe on Christ will be saved. And the ones who believe are the ones given by the Father (Jn 6).

 

[Hammster]

I don't believe anything is set. There are a lot of varibles in the world. God is not bound by any laws or rules. He can change his mind if he so wills. I say preach the Gospel and let whosoever come to Christ.

I think that you want to put God in a box.

Well,at least I know where you are coming from. That view is borderline Open Theism.

 

[Robert Pate]

Well,at least I know where you are coming from. That view is borderline Open Theism.

Call it what you want, God is free to make choices. What you want is a God that is controled by laws and rules, this way you will know exactly what to expect from him. He has given us free will because that is one of his attributes. He loves freedom and so do I. You can keep your God in the box doctrine. I am God's free man.

 

[drstevej]

Call it what you want, God is free to make choices. What you want is a God that is controled by laws and rules, this way you will know exactly what to expect from him. He has given us free will because that is one of his attributes. He loves freedom and so do I. You can keep your God in the box doctrine. I am God's free man.

Is God free to:

[1] Lie
[2] Break His promise

or is He bound by His character?

 

[Hammster]

Call it what you want, God is free to make choices. What you want is a God that is controled by laws and rules, this way you will know exactly what to expect from him. He has given us free will because that is one of his attributes. He loves freedom and so do I. You can keep your God in the box doctrine. I am God's free man.

You may want to read Romans 9. It's right between Romans 8 and Romans 10. In fact, free man, you may want to start with Romans 8:28.

 

[Robert Pate]

Is God free to:

[1] Lie
[2] Break His promise

or is He bound by His character?

God is righteous and just in all of his dealings with men. No one will be able to accuse God of being unjust in the judgment. He has done all that is necessary for the salvation of fallen man. Salvation is a free gift from God Romans 5:15:18.

Is God bound by his character? You bet he is.

 

[Robert Pate]

You may want to read Romans 9. It's right between Romans 8 and Romans 10. In fact, free man, you may want to start with Romans 8:28.

The Gospel makes me free.
In Jesus Christ I have been Justified, sanctified and redeemed 1 Corinthians 1:30. I am awaiting glorification, Colossians 3:4.

Romans 8:28-30 There is nothing in those scriptures about anyone being predestinated to heaven or hell. It is another calvin lie.

 

[JDS]

Is God free to:

[1] Lie
[2] Break His promise

or is He bound by His character?

Whoa! Pardner! This is the argument I have been giving you .

1 ¶ Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

I know; I know: Every time you see the word elect is like a Campbellite seeing the word water. Paul is an apostle according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledging of the truth. What? A verb? Notice though that eternal life is a hope. A hope is something not yet received, but promised, else hope would not be hope, See Ro 8:24. So, the eternal life promised before the world began in this particular context is not received until eternity future begins. Indeed, the word "world" in this passage is the word "aionio", which is translated 42 times as "eternal".

Who did he promise this eternal life to? You are right if you said whosoever will believe the record that he gives of his son and receives him by faith.

Now, lets set the record straight concerning the comers in John 6. These were Israelites who were the property of God, the Father. He will give all that will come to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ called them to come to him, as did John the Baptist. Some came and some did not. But as many as came, he received and he lost none of them except the devil Judas. By the time he arrived at Jn 10, he had a fold of Israelite sheep that would follow him and would not harken or follow the heirling. They knew his voice.

You are not sheep and you are not of that fold and you should stop reading yourself into these passages. Learn from them, but don't insert yourself in them. It is confusion and will lead to manifold false doctrines. the book must be rightly divided.

If I can help, please let me know!

 

[Hammster]

The Gospel makes me free.

In Jesus Christ I have been Justified, sanctified and redeemed 1 Corinthians 1:30. I am awaiting glorification, Colossians 3:4.



Romans 8:28-30 There is nothing in those scriptures about anyone being predestinated to heaven or hell. It is another calvin lie.

I believe that you are free, to an extent, because you are of the elect. But prior to salvation you we dead in your sins and a slave to sin.

And as far as Romans 8:28ff is concerned, are you saying that all are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, or just those going to heaven?

 

[JDS]

I believe that you are free, to an extent, because you are of the elect. But prior to salvation you we dead in your sins and a slave to sin.

And as far as Romans 8:28ff is concerned, are you saying that all are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, or just those going to heaven?

If death meant inability, would it be necessary for that meaning to be consisitent in every passage it is found? Yes or no?

 

[Hammster]

If death meant inability, would it be necessary for that meaning to be consisitent in every passage it is found? Yes or no?

Not really, unless you are prepared to use that same reasoning for every word.