Calvinism Refuted

[chestertonrules]

I evangelize by preaching the gospel of Gods grace, if they are elect, the Holy Ghost leadis them to Jesus christ..thats His Job..jn 16:

..

Why bother?

If they are elect, what can you do to change their circumstances one way or the other.


NOTHING.

Can't you understand how illogical your theology is?

 

[Hammster]

Why bother?



If they are elect, what can you do to change their circumstances one way or the other.





NOTHING.



Can't you understand how illogical your theology is?

That's what I keep asking you. If God already knows who will be saved, based on you view of foreknowledge, then why do you witness?

 

[chestertonrules]

That's what I keep asking you. If God already knows who will be saved, based on you view of foreknowledge, then why do you witness?

He knows who will choose him, but I don't know.

If I don't follow his will, then I may not be chosen based on my disobedience.

Others, who might have been saved by efforts, may also perish due to my disobedience.

 

[cygnusx1]

That's what I keep asking you. If God already knows who will be saved, based on you view of foreknowledge, then why do you witness?

the Arminians and other anti-Calvinits have never answered this point because they cannot . They cannot even understand the "use of means" . So probematic is this question for them that thousands realisng their self made quandry have rushed into the dogmas of Open Theism , such is man's disdain for God's Glory and sovereignty , many feel much more at home in open heresy !

 

[Hammster]

He knows who will choose Him (the elect), but I don't. We witness for essentially the same reasons. I am not saying that proves that my view of predestination/election is right...just trying to demonstrate why Calvinists witness.

 

[cygnusx1]

He knows who will choose Him (the elect), but I don't. We witness for essentially the same reasons. Am not saying that to prove my view of predestination/election is right...just trying to demonstrate why Calvinists witness.

it is through the foolishness of preaching (the Gospel) that men are saved , God did not merely predestine the elect to be saved (which is the mistake of BOTH the hyper calvinist as well as the anti-calvinist) no , God also predestined HOW and WHEN and WHY the elect will be saved , too many have a warped view of predestination election and how they fit with salvation .... they reject what they cannot understand.

 

[Benefactor]

Jacob, I thought I answered that question somewhere.

First, the only group I know that actually do not evangelize is Primitive Baptist. Their brand of Calvinism is rather out of the loop from normal Calvinist churches. The one I was a member of supported 10 missionaries in conjunction with various other like minded churches. We visited people that can and visited just as most local churches do. While I was not a Calvinist among Calvinist I was the Missions Chairman for over 5 years and a number of our missionaries were Calvinist and some were not.

When I had a real job, a number of years back, one of my fellow workers was Primitive Baptist. He was a member of Governor Guy Hunt’s church in North Central Ala. We had a sizable number of conversations on what they believed.

The reason is the same to witness. We are told to do so, go therefore and make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

 

[Hammster]

Jacob, I thought I answered that question somewhere.



First, the only group I know that actually does not evangelize is Primitive Baptist. Their brand of Calvinism is rather out of the loop from normal Calvinist churches. The one I was a member of supported 10 missionaries in conjunction with various other like minded churches. We visited people that can and visited just as most local churches do. While I was not a Calvinist among Calvinist I was the Missions Chairman for over 5 years and a number of our missionaries were Calvinist and some were not.



When I had a real job, a number of years back, one of my fellow workers was Primitive Baptist. He was a member of Governor Guy Hunt’s church in North Central Ala. We had a sizable number of conversations on what they believed.



The reason is the same to witness. We are told to do so, go therefore and make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Thank you for understanding the argument. Now go be a Calvinists and sin no more.

 

[Hammster]

What does it mean in this passage?



Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.



Ro 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:



Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.



Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.



Think of the ramifications of these verses if death meant total inability.

Every instance that you give uses a different word for 'dead'. Most translations use "have died'.

In Ephesians 2:2 the word is dead, like a corpse.

In a nutshell, one is a process (your examples), and one is a state.

Like I said, it depends on how you use it, and in this case, it depends on what the actual word is.

P.S. A good concordance can help clear some of this up.

 

[beloved57]

If they are elect, what can you do to change their circumstances one way or the other.

I am not trying to change no ones circumstances..i am preacing the gospel..

 

[Benefactor]

Thank you for understanding the argument. Now go be a Calvinists and sin no more.

I have always wondered about 5CPs believing in sinless perfection, now I know.

 

[cygnusx1]

Given that Hammster, and I imagine all 5 points Calvinists, just stated that only God saves a person AND that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation or the salvation of anyone else, I think my premise is on solid ground.

However, I'm willing to listen.

Where is my error?

your error is the most common one , you ignore the use of means , because you don't know what it means to use means .

to be cont ............ D.V.

 

[Robert Pate]

your error is the most common one , you ignore the use of means , because you don't know what it means to use means .

to be cont ............ D.V.

What did he say?

All down through the Old Testament those that pleased God did so by their faith in him. There is nothing in the Old Testament about anyone being predestinated to salvation. All of the Patriarchs and prophets were chosen by God for a specific purpose, The purpose was to bring forth a nation and a people from whom the savior would come. This was God's objective purpose. Salvation always has been and always will be by faith in God and his son Jesus Christ. The scripture says that Abraham was justified by faith. Faith in what? He had faith in God's promise of a savior. They were all saved the same way that we are saved today. They looked forward to the savior. We look back. It is all by faith.

 

[MamaZ]

What did he say?

All down through the Old Testament those that pleased God did so by their faith in him. There is nothing in the Old Testament about anyone being predestinated to salvation. All of the Patriarchs and prophets were chosen by God for a specific purpose, The purpose was to bring forth a nation and a people from whom the savior would come. This was God's objective purpose. Salvation always has been and always will be by faith in God and his son Jesus Christ. The scripture says that Abraham was justified by faith. Faith in what? He had faith in God's promise of a savior. They were all saved the same way that we are saved today. They looked forward to the savior. We look back. It is all by faith.

So are the redeemed chosen for a specific purpose.. The elect are Chosen by God to be conformed to the Image of His dear son by the sanctiying of the Spirit..

 

[beloved57]

So are the redeemed chosen for a specific purpose.. The elect are Chosen by God to be conformed to the Image of His dear son by the sanctiying of the Spirit..

Yes, excellent, Gods purpose, the most sacred purpose of all..rom 8:


28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

pate believes ones freewill chooses them for this sacred purpose, and not God..

 

[Robert Pate]

So are the redeemed chosen for a specific purpose.. The elect are Chosen by God to be conformed to the Image of His dear son by the sanctiying of the Spirit..

Yes, that is true. It brings much glory to God when a hell bound sinner repents and trust in Christ for his salvation.

Even the angels in heaven rejoice.

Predestinationism robs God of his Glory. No one is really saved by the sacrafice and the work of Christ if they are predestinated. It is like they are saying Christ didn't have to go to the cross for the salvation of fallen man. It is anti-gospel.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes, excellent, Gods purpose, the most sacred purpose of all..rom 8:


28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

pate believes ones freewill chooses them for this sacred purpose, and not God..

God is calling all to come to Christ. Not just some. Man has a free will to come or to reject. There are 50 times more scripture in the bible that shows salvation is by grace through faith to all, than there is about someone being hopefully predestinated.

B57 cannot come to the Lord by faith, He doesn't believe, so he is hoping that he has been prdestinated.

 

[beloved57]

God is calling all to come to Christ

Yes, all who are burdened and heavy ladened..matt 11:

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, that is true. It brings much glory to God when a hell bound sinner repents and trust in Christ for his salvation.



Even the angels in heaven rejoice.



Predestinationism robs God of his Glory. No one is really saved by the sacrafice and the work of Christ if they are predestinated. It is like they are saying Christ didn't have to go to the cross for the salvation of fallen man. It is anti-gospel.

I was wondering if you would elaborate on a couple of things.

One, how does a sovereign God choosing for Himself a people rob Him of His glory?

Two, on what grounds are you saying that those who hold to the doctrines of grace believe that they are without sin and don't need the atonement? Is Jesus not both just and the justifier?

 

[cygnusx1]

What did he say?

All down through the Old Testament those that pleased God did so by their faith in him. There is nothing in the Old Testament about anyone being predestinated to salvation. All of the Patriarchs and prophets were chosen by God for a specific purpose, The purpose was to bring forth a nation and a people from whom the savior would come. This was God's objective purpose. Salvation always has been and always will be by faith in God and his son Jesus Christ. The scripture says that Abraham was justified by faith. Faith in what? He had faith in God's promise of a savior. They were all saved the same way that we are saved today. They looked forward to the savior. We look back. It is all by faith.

it's all by revelation illumination and faith ........ read my sig.