Calvinism Refuted

[cygnusx1]

hi gordon^ still at it hey !

 

[Benefactor]

Neither of those verses refute Limited Atonement, or Calvinism. For all your false accusations against Calvinists, you yourself are the master of eisegesis (please note how the word is spelled). Many of the arguments you attempt to mount against Calvinism are emotion-based. Like most anti-Calvinists, you constantly over-reach, and try to prove too much from too little, taking verses out of context, reading meanings into them that don't exist. Many times, the views you claim to be refuting are not Calvinist at all, but inventions of your own mind. We keep telling you that you cannot refute something that you clearly demonstrate you have no correct knowledge about, but it seemingly falls on deaf ears. We Calvinists know what we believe, and most of the time what is said that Calvinists believe by you and other anti-Calvinists here are not what we believe at all. You tell falsehoods about what we believe, and then get all defensive when we tell you and show you that they are falsehoods, as though it were highly offensive that we Calvinists should attempt to correct your wrong statements about Calvinism, and expose your lack of correct knowledge. Falsehoods told in ignorance are one thing, but when they are told deliberately, there is no other words for it than what it is: lying. (This sounds serious)[/quote]. Please don't hurt me. I promise to continue defending the truth.

I love Saturday: Why? I get to take my wife on a date. Yep, we love to go to Rosie’s (If you notice this color is supposed to have a calming effect on people and it is easy on the eyes.) I have noticed in the design of websites the writing keeps getting smaller and smaller.

 

[cygnusx1]

you still haven't grasped your dilema , you just continue speaking about foreknowledge , ignoring the absolute CERTAINTY of individuals who shall be damned rules OUT all possibility of the SAME being saved ... it's not rocket science !!

If you knew for certain that YOU would not get to live beyond this week would you book yourself a holiday (vacation) next year ? why !

 

[Benefactor]

A W Pink writes ;

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb. 2:9).This passage need not detain us long. A false doctrine has been erected here on a false translation. There is no word whatever in the Greek corresponding to "man" in our English version. In the Greek it is left in the abstract—"He tasted death for every." The Revised Version has correctly omitted "man" from the text, but has wrongly inserted it in italics. Others suppose the word "thing" should be supplied—"He tasted death for every thing" —but this, too, we deem a mistake. It seems to us that the words which immediately follow explain our text: "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." It is of "sons"the apostle is here writing, and we suggest an ellipsis of "son"—thus: "He tasted death for every"—and supply son in italics. Thus instead of teaching the unlimited design of Christ’s death, Hebrews 2:9, 10 is in perfect accord with the other Scriptures we have quoted which set forth the restricted purpose in the Atonement: it was for the "sons" and not the human race our Lord "tasted death"

I will come back to Pinks understandable bias on this wonderful subject.

I was wondering is your avatar's heart is a VW emblem?

 

[cygnusx1]

I was wondering is your avatar's heart is a VW emblem?

YES , it is also THREE V's , a Trinitarian badge

 

[Benefactor]

YES , it is also THREE V's , a Trinitarian badge

How did it come about to be called a Trinitarian badge? Just because of three Vs

 

[Benefactor]

It could be 4 Vs One on top - two joined together and one upside down

 

[Hammster]

1. Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2. "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are {all} butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5. "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6. and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8. "Then he *said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find {there,} invite to the wedding feast.' 10. "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12. and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13. "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14. "For many are called, but few {are} chosen."







People are called - the ones chosen are the ones who accepted the call. One person who wanted to be there but on his terms was discovered and banished to outer darkness.



The bottom line: People were invited and the invitation required those that accept to wear certain type clothing. Some decided of their own free will not to come because the cared more about their daily affairs than going to the wedding, yet others accepted. The one that snuck in and did not wear the correct clothing he is like those who try to get saved by methods outside the prescribed method, he was like Elvis, “I did it my way”. In this parable he did not do it God's way, so he got kicked out.

v.10 were they gathered, or invited?

 

[Benefactor]

Since you won't address my last post, I guess I'll move on, too.

If you use this passage to defend your position, then you will have to accept univeralism because Jesus would then be a mediator between the Father and believers and also the Father and non-believers.

I will in time. I have to work to make a living here and there. Hopefully in time I will be able to get to everything.

 

[Benefactor]

v.10 were they gathered, or invited?

INVITED

1. Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2. "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are {all} butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5. "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6. and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8. "Then he *said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.


9. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find {there,} invite to the wedding feast.' 10. "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12. and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13. "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14. "For many are called, but few {are} chosen."

Now what turn will take place next? How will the next twist look? Stand by folks this should be interesting, and fun.

 

[Robert Pate]

v.10 were they gathered, or invited?

Jesus went out into the highways and byways and picked out the ones that he wanted to come to the party. Right?

 

[Hammster]

INVITED



1. Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2. "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are {all} butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5. "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6. and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8. "Then he *said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.





9. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find {there,} invite to the wedding feast.' 10. "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12. and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13. "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14. "For many are called, but few {are} chosen."

Funny, then, that it would say "gathered".

 

[cygnusx1]

the invitation is the general call (many are called few are chosen)

the gathered is the special call
(Rom 8 ;
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Benefactor]

you still haven't grasped your dilema , you just continue speaking about foreknowledge , ignoring the absolute CERTAINTY of individuals who shall be damned rules OUT all possibility of the SAME being saved ... it's not rocket science !!

If you knew for certain that YOU would not get to live beyond this week would you book yourself a holiday (vacation) next year ? why !

1. Years ago Navy salts played tricks on new sailors. That's right, fun and game stuff. Carpenters do the same thing to new apprentice. In the Navy they send for "Water Line" and the seasoned carpenter sends the apprentice for some sky hooks. They are great tools because they produce the intended effect. What exactly is that? Thanks for asking. First, it introduces the newbie’s to the real world. Second, it test the character of the person, can they roll with the punches and not take things to serious. Now things must be taken serious for safety, but this is not a safety issue it is a maturing step and if handled right a critical bonding with the crew.

2. I think rocket science would be easier than to try and understand God in the ever present now. It is fun, yes, and rewarding to those who have gone beyond the "sky hook" and "water line" test. When this happens a lot of fun and mutual respect takes place.

3. Booking for my vacation next year. If you will pay for it I will book it. I would like to go back to Rome again. I will wait to go to Jerusalem. Actually I will get to be there 1000 years with our Lord in the 1K kingdom. Actually you will be there too. I wonder what we will talk about. Well anyway I we will get to experience the sacrificial system in full works as it will be a memorial to Christ, and consider the streams of water flowing east and West from the thrown. What a breath taking site. Just think Calvin can set Paul straight when he sees him. That just might be interesting to see.

So that anything in these three points is not taken out of context some of the information is intended to communicate a softer approach. I suspect at least one or two have some steam coming out from around the collar. It takes a bit to be perfect - mature. Some people get their feeling hurt over normal stuff. Kind of like the legalist who only see black and white, no gray anywhere.

I love this icon and boy can I poke fun at it. This is my Calvinist buddy. He is dead. He is claiming he is dead, that is what the sign says. But his tail moves. I think he is a Calvinist trying to defend the TULIP doctrine of depravity, but the tail is causing a serious problem.

I need to come up with a good icon for the Daisy - I think JA loved daisies, He loves me He loves me not.

 

[Hammster]

1. Years ago Navy salts played tricks on new sailors. That's right, fun and game stuff. Carpenters do the same thing to new apprentice. In the Navy they send for "Water Line" and the seasoned carpenter sends the apprentice for some sky hooks. They are great tools because they produce the intended effect. What exactly is that? Thanks for asking. First, it introduces the newbie’s to the real world. Second, it test the character of the person, can they roll with the punches and not take things to serious. Now things must be taken serious for safety, but this is not a safety issue it is a maturing step and if handled right a critical bonding with the crew.



2. I think rocket science would be easier than to try and understand God in the ever present now. It is fun, yes, and rewarding to those who have gone beyond the "sky hook" and "water line" test. When this happens a lot of fun and mutual respect takes place.



3. Booking for my vacation next year. If you will pay for it I will book it. I would like to go back to Rome again. I will wait to go to Jerusalem. Actually I will get to be there 1000 years with our Lord in the 1K kingdom. Actually you will be there too. I wonder what we will talk about. Well anyway I we will get to experience the sacrificial system in full works as it will be a memorial to Christ, and consider the streams of water flowing east and West from the thrown. What a breath taking site. Just think Calvin can set Paul straight when he sees him. That just might be interesting to see.



So that anything in these three points is not taken out of context some of the information is intended to communicate a softer approach. I suspect at least one or two have some steam coming out from around the collar. It takes a bit to be perfect - mature. Some people get their feeling hurt over normal stuff. Kind of like the legalist who only see black and white, no gray anywhere.



I love this icon and boy can I poke fun at it. This is my Calvinist buddy. He is dead. He is claiming he is dead, that is what the sign says. But his tail moves. I think he is a Calvinist trying to defend the TULIP doctrine of depravity, but the tail is causing a serious problem.



I need to come up with a good icon for the Daisy - I think JA loved daisies, He loves me He loves me not.

I appreciate the tone of your post. i'm not exactly sure what your getting at, but it's appreciated nonetheless.

Just a point of clarification...a Calvinist doesn't think he is dead. A Calvinist thinks he was dead. See Ephesians 2.

 

[Benefactor]

I appreciate the tone of your post. i'm not exactly sure what your getting at, but it's appreciated nonetheless.

Just a point of clarification...a Calvinist doesn't think he is dead. A Calvinist thinks he was dead. See Ephesians 2.

Pig represents lost in sins and trespasses - depraved

Now are you sure? How can anyone tell if the dead pig is or is not a Calvinist? If God, after consulting with JC, picked this dead pig to be one of the few chosen then, he would in fact be a Calvinist. Now there is a chance he or she might be a follower of JA. Yet, if this pig came to life, still can't explain the tail unless your theology allows it, he would be better off recognizing he was CURED

Whatever the state of the pig - IF - he is zapped, or if he freely allows God to zap him then we will know for sure which he will turn out to be. However, if he rejects both JC and JA then he is CURED.

That sounds very good.

By the way I did catch it IS WAS - I will hold on to that because I believe you just gave me some ammunition to use against you here and there.

Sorry, have to cut it short, this is DATE day and we are going to Rosie's Oh Boy. You know us Old Codgers can still be romantic just in a different way. I have been trying to talk her into letting me buy some books on anti Calvinism and if I treat her special I could just get the go ahead. Wish me luck, sorry luck not allow on the Believers Web, Pray for me instead.

 

[cygnusx1]

you still haven't grasped your dilema , you just continue ignoring the absolute CERTAINTY of individuals who shall without question be damned rules OUT all possibility of the SAME being saved ... is this too hard for you !!

If you knew for certain that YOU would not get to live beyond this week would you then go and book yourself a holiday (vacation) next year ? why !

 

[Hammster]

Pig represents lost in sins and trespasses - depraved



Now are you sure? How can anyone tell if the dead pig is or is not a Calvinist? If God, after consulting with JC, picked this dead pig to be one of the few chosen then, he would in fact be a Calvinist. Now there is a chance he or she might be a follower of JA. Yet, if this pig came to life, still can't explain the tail unless your theology allows it, he would be better off recognizing he was CURED



Whatever the state of the pig - IF - he is zapped, or if he freely allows God to zap him then we will know for sure which he will turn out to be. However, if he rejects both JC and JA then he is CURED.



That sounds very good.



By the way I did catch it IS WAS - I will hold on to that because I believe you just gave me some ammunition to use against you here and there.



Sorry, have to cut it short, this is DATE day and we are going to Rosie's Oh Boy. You know us Old Codgers can still be romantic just in a different way. I have been trying to talk her into letting me buy some books on anti Calvinism and if I treat her special I could just get the go ahead. Wish me luck, sorry luck not allow on the Believers Web, Pray for me instead.

I really don't mind you disagreeing with Calvinism. I did for years. But I do take issue with you misrepresenting it." Hopefully you will find some good books that will at least help you understand better that which you oppose.

 

[Benefactor]

Funny, then, that it would say "gathered".

9. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find {there,} invite to the wedding feast.' 10. "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12. and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13. "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14. "For many are called, but few {are} chosen."

All these in the wedding illustration were “Called” They all received the invitation. It is clear that the guests who are invited can refuse the invitation.

First note that the master said “as many as you find” Invite

All the servants found were invited. Apparently they all accepted. However, one wanted to come but did not want to follow the dress code required by the Master. I managed to sneak in but the master spotted him at first glance.

Regardless of all the other slants and theological spins one thing is clear in the parable, invitations went out, some freely rejected the invitation and other freely accepted.

There isn’t anything in the illustration that suggests all could not refuse the invitation.

 

[heymikey80]

Hm. The parallel passage doesn't allow the distinctions you're making about refusal of the follow-on invitation:

22And the servant said, 'Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.' 23And the master said to the servant, 'Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.'" Lk 14:22-24
​

Freedom doesn't seem to be Jesus' point in the parallel passage. A banquet filled with people, some compelled and all undeserving, seems to be His point.