Calvinism Refuted

[cygnusx1]

Robert Pate Refuted continued ...

"The Lord hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4). That the Lord made all, perhaps every reader of this book will allow: that He made all for Himself is not so widely believed. That God made us, not for our own sakes, but for Himself; not for our own happiness, but for His glory; is, nevertheless, repeatedly affirmed in Scripture—Revelation 4:11. But Proverbs 16:4 goes even farther: it expressly declares that the Lord made the wicked for the Day of Evil: that was His design in giving them being. But why?Does not Romans 9:17 tell us, "For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth"! God has made the wicked that, at the end, He may demonstrate "His power"—demonstrate it by showing what an easy matter it is for Him to subdue the stoutest rebel and to overthrow His mightiest enemy.”



God is sovereign and he does things according to his will and no one can ask why? Justice is done according to the sin of man. God did not infuse sin to man. God is perfect in his attributes and he is not the author of sin as the apostle John said in him there is no darkness, God damn not the man but the sinner.



Ps 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.



When man is left them out from the common grace of God his heart becomes hard as Pharaoh. What is the difference between Pharaoh and the man on the street who does not believe in God yet that man on the street does not look wicked at all, he is even good to people. When God takes the common grace from that man who looks so good to people he can be like Pharaoh and Hitler. How many times you see on T.V. or news when someone commits horrible crime, but the neighbors of the man who committed the crime say, they cannot believe this happened as this man was such a good man, God can take away that common grace and the man who seemed to be good, his real nature will come out, the true sin will explode into action and he can be as vile as Hitler.

The doctrine of reprobation is should not hinder or discourage anyone but rejoice in election. There are many who believe that they do not want to preach election because it is a hindrance for evangelism. It was apostle Paul who exposed and preached this doctrine more than the others, and also we know that Paul laid the foundation for the missionary work. Election was not a hindrance for evangelism but a great motivation for evangelism as we do not know who are the elect and non elect we need to preach the gospel to all, Paul said, " Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." (2 Tim 2:10)

by Arthur Pink
​

http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Reprobation.htm

 

[nobdysfool]

I didn't realize that Benefactor was Gordon.

So far, he hasn't admitted to it, but i know he is.

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert Pate Refuted continued ...

"The Lord hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4). That the Lord made all, perhaps every reader of this book will allow: that He made all for Himself is not so widely believed. That God made us, not for our own sakes, but for Himself; not for our own happiness, but for His glory; is, nevertheless, repeatedly affirmed in Scripture—Revelation 4:11. But Proverbs 16:4 goes even farther: it expressly declares that the Lord made the wicked for the Day of Evil: that was His design in giving them being. But why?Does not Romans 9:17 tell us, "For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth"! God has made the wicked that, at the end, He may demonstrate "His power"—demonstrate it by showing what an easy matter it is for Him to subdue the stoutest rebel and to overthrow His mightiest enemy.”



God is sovereign and he does things according to his will and no one can ask why? Justice is done according to the sin of man. God did not infuse sin to man. God is perfect in his attributes and he is not the author of sin as the apostle John said in him there is no darkness, God damn not the man but the sinner.



Ps 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.



When man is left them out from the common grace of God his heart becomes hard as Pharaoh. What is the difference between Pharaoh and the man on the street who does not believe in God yet that man on the street does not look wicked at all, he is even good to people. When God takes the common grace from that man who looks so good to people he can be like Pharaoh and Hitler. How many times you see on T.V. or news when someone commits horrible crime, but the neighbors of the man who committed the crime say, they cannot believe this happened as this man was such a good man, God can take away that common grace and the man who seemed to be good, his real nature will come out, the true sin will explode into action and he can be as vile as Hitler.

The doctrine of reprobation is should not hinder or discourage anyone but rejoice in election. There are many who believe that they do not want to preach election because it is a hindrance for evangelism. It was apostle Paul who exposed and preached this doctrine more than the others, and also we know that Paul laid the foundation for the missionary work. Election was not a hindrance for evangelism but a great motivation for evangelism as we do not know who are the elect and non elect we need to preach the gospel to all, Paul said, " Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." (2 Tim 2:10)

by Arthur Pink

​

[URL="http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Reprobation.htm"]http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Reprobation.htm[/URL]

Many mistake God's preference for predestination. God prefers those those that love him. Election means preference.

Jesus prefers the lost, the publicans and sinners, the sick and rejected. In a word He prefers all those who need his saving hand.

The preaching of the Gospel is the same as the preaching of God's preference.

The message to the world is "Come unto me, all of you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly of heart; and you will find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is eay and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-29.

Jesus prefers humanity. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" Not to just some, but to all.

"That WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.

Faith, not predestination is what makes salvation ours. "For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through FAITH and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8.

 

[Hammster]

Many mistake God's preference for predestination. God prefers those those that love him. Election means preference.



Jesus prefers the lost, the publicans and sinners, the sick and rejected. In a word He prefers all those who need his saving hand.



The preaching of the Gospel is the same as the preaching of God's preference.



The message to the world is "Come unto me, all of you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly of heart; and you will find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is eay and my burden is light." Matthew 11:28-29.



Jesus prefers humanity. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son" Not to just some, but to all.



"That WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.



Faith, not predestination is what makes salvation ours. "For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through FAITH and not that of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8.

My point is that faith is a gift from 6od. We don't earn it, nor deserve it. We wouldn't even think to ask for it because of our fallen state (see Eph 2:1). You can't get to Ephesians 2:8 without going through 1-7.

Now turn to John 3:16. The WHOSOEVER are those who receive this gift. Again, to get to John 3:16 you have to through John 3:3 and following. The verses that you use cannot just stand on their own. The must be used in context, and when they are, you end up with a whole different view.

 

[chestertonrules]

My point is that faith is a gift from 6od. We don't earn it, nor deserve it. We wouldn't even think to ask for it because of our fallen state (see Eph 2:1). You can't get to Ephesians 2:8 without going through 1-7.

Now turn to John 3:16. The WHOSOEVER are those who receive this gift. Again, to get to John 3:16 you have to through John 3:3 and following. The verses that you use cannot just stand on their own. The must be used in context, and when they are, you end up with a whole different view.

So this must be what your bible says:

Matt 19

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, except for those two cursed non elect children over there, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to these elect golden children."

 

[Hammster]

So this must be what your bible says:



Matt 19



14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, except for those two cursed non elect children over there, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to these elect golden children."

I know it seems like an argument to keep throwing verses around, but it would be better suited to the discussion if you would address the point. Thanks.

 

[chestertonrules]

I know it seems like an argument to keep throwing verses around, but it would be better suited to the discussion if you would address the point. Thanks.

I made my point.

You believe God condemns children to hell if they make the mistake of growing into adults.

True or false?

 

[Hammster]

I made my point.



You believe God condemns children to hell if they make the mistake of growing into adults.



True or false?

Actually, you did nothing to address the point. No attempt was made to exegete the verses, verses which the OP mentioned. Now if you want to start another thread and make an argument, I will respond there.

 

[chestertonrules]

Actually, you did nothing to address the point. No attempt was made to exegete the verses, verses which the OP mentioned. Now if you want to start another thread and make an argument, I will respond there.

Here's what I responded to.

My point is that faith is a gift from 6od. We don't earn it, nor deserve it.

I understood that your belief is that some get faith, while this gift is withheld from others.

Is my understanding correct?

 

[Benefactor]

When we talk about Calvin being refuted are we just talking about him or his followers who have taken what he taught to an extreme?

 

[chestertonrules]

When we talk about Calvin being refuted are we just talking about him or his followers who have taken what he taught to an extreme?

John Calvin in his "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,
"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some , and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

 

[Hammster]

Here's what I responded to.





I understood that your belief is that some get faith, while this gift is withheld from others.



Is my understanding correct?

Yes. That is what the bible teaches in many places.

 

[Benefactor]

John Calvin in his "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,
"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some , and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

I am not a student of Calvin, but some posit that he held to different views of this position over his life. In that he started out to be a Catholic Priest, perhaps his first belief did not include this view.

I have read not so long ago in some of the information on the net that Calve believed the Elect could fall from grace prior to death and in essence loose their salvation.

As well, I don't recall when and where but, it is my understand that Sprol and his teacher, name escapes my memory at the present, that it was said of them that they made similar statements that if for some reason they died having not confessed their sins of the day they would in effect validate that they were not elect and split hell wide open.

What do you know of these things if at all?

 

[Hammster]

I am not a student of Calvin, but some posit that he held to different views of this position over his life. In that he started out to be a Catholic Priest, perhaps his first belief did not include this view.



I have read not so long ago in some of the information on the net that Calve believed the Elect could fall from grace prior to death and in essence loose their salvation.



As well, I don't recall when and where but, it is my understand that Sprol and his teacher, name escapes my memory at the present, that it was said of them that they made similar statements that if for some reason they died having not confessed their sins of the day they would in effect validate that they were not elect and split hell wide open.



What do you know of these things if at all?

Yeah, and I once heard that Santa Claus admitted that there really is no Easter Bunny.

My point is that coming up with things you may have heard really does nothing to advance the discussion.

 

[Benefactor]

Yeah, and I once heard that Santa Claus admitted that there really is no Easter Bunny.

My point is that coming up with things you may have heard really does nothing to advance the discussion.

So I take it you have not heard these things. I will look into and see if I can come up with a quote that will validate this second hand information.

 

[Hammster]

So I take it you have not heard these things. I will look into and see if I can come up with a quote that will validate this second hand information.

I am not sure what it will prove, but a direct quote would be best. And my be better suited for another thread.

 

[Benefactor]

The debate is centered on the well-known formula TULIP. Each letter of this acronym stands for a different doctrine held by classical Calvinists [7] but rejected by Arminians. The doctrines are: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints.
It is important for Catholics to know about these subjects: First, Catholics are often attacked by Calvinists who misunderstand the Catholic position on these issues. Second, Catholics often misunderstand the teaching of their own Church on predestination. Third, in recent years there has been a large number of Calvinists who have become Catholics [8]. By understanding Calvinism better, Catholics can help more Calvinists make the jump.

James Akin; http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm ; 3/6/09

Interesting comments by James Akin

 

[Benefactor]

Limited Atonment - Refuted:

I Timothy 2:3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time

I Timothy 4:9. It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11. Prescribe and teach these things.

 

[cygnusx1]

Limited Atonment - Refuted:

I Timothy 2:3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time

I Timothy 4:9. It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11. Prescribe and teach these things.

So Christ who kinows all things , who knew who would be saved and who wouldn't be saved , who KNEW every single sinners name who would reject the Gospel , still died for them in order to what ?

It cannot be to save them , for HE KNEW that they wouldn't ........... BE SAVED !


so much for attempting to widen the design of the Atonement beyond what it actually achieves . such is the way of proof texting without looking at what is at stake.

and no , Calvinist's don't ignore or change these texts , they understand them....






.

 

[Benefactor]

I know that Calvinist do not ignore them. Now, from my side God's Absolute Knowledge does not eliminate the offer to all. In that God made his plan in Christ based on Foreknowledge this too involved the preaching of the truth in all dispensations. God's sees all of it in the NOW.

The Now is the same regardless of weather it is your view or mine. The difference is your side mandates some to be saved and some to be lost. My side offers the free gift of salvation and saves all who believe

Limited Atonment Refuted Yet Again

10. Titus 2: 11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

11. Titus3:4. But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared, 5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6. whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7. so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.