Calvinism Refuted

[Benefactor]

I guess, then, that Jesus does advocate for the whole world, lost and saved, and is a mediator for the whole world, lost and saved.

(you are headed somewhere by using "is a mediator" - that is fine - whatever spin is put on the verse it means what it says - God satisfied the sin problem with his life - to make it something else is going beyond the text which creates a pre-text )

Not to mention, He is also a propitiation for all. So now that God has been satisfied, let's demand the closure of Hell.

{Closing hell is not related to this. If God had not required man to accept the sacrifice, the provision for sin, then hell would still exist for the devil and his fellow angel followers just the same. - If you choose not to acknowledge that man is responsible to not only receive the truth but that when he does to decide what to do with it. Regardless of the reason any information received by a human caused a reaction. In this case the information concerns the atonement for all. If the one hearing will believe the message then such believing results in salvation.}

2. And he is the propitiation for our sins (heaven bound) and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (hell bound) if they don't accept the truth they have received.

The related Greek word, hilasmos, is used for Christ as our propitiation, 1 John 2:2; 4:10, and for "atonement" in the Septuagint (Leviticus 25:9). The thought in the Old Testament sacrifices and in the New Testament fulfillment is that Christ completely satisfied the just demands of a holy God for judgment on sin by His death on the Cross.

TheopediA; http://www.theopedia.com/Propitiation; 3/8/09

 

[Hammster]

(you are headed somewhere by using "is a mediator" - that is fine - whatever spin is put on the verse it means what it says - God satisfied the sin problem with his life - to make it something else is going beyond the text which creates a pre-text )

The mediator reference was to 1 Timothy 2:5. A lot who use 1 John 2:2 out of context often use 1 Tim 2 out of context as well. So in 1 John, Jesus is the advocate for those who don't believe, and in 1 Tim, He is the mediator for those who don't believe.

{Closing hell is not related to this. If God had not required man to accept the sacrifice, the provision for sin, then hell would still exist for the devil and his fellow angel followers just the same. - If you choose not to acknowledge that man is responsible to not only receive the truth but that when he does to decide what to do with it. Regardless of the reason any information received by a human caused a reaction. In this case the information concerns the atonement for all. If the one hearing will believe the message then such believing results in salvation.}

I admit that I took the closing Hell part a bit far, but the point was made. So from your viewpoint (correct me if I am wrong) then Jesus died for all sins of all men for all time. BUT, not believing isn't a sin, but you still go to hell for it. So you are being punished for something that isn't a sin? Or is Hell intended for something else other than punishment? Hell is then what? For those not smart enough, or lucky enough to hear the gospel presented clearly? It can't be for doing their own thing, for rejecting God and putting themselves in place of God, for that is idolatry and that is a sin, but since Jesus atoned for all sin, then they can't be sent to hell for that. It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

2. And he is the propitiation for our sins (heaven bound) and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (hell bound) if they don't accept the truth they have received.

There you go, adding words to scripture to try to make your point..

TheopediA; http://www.theopedia.com/Propitiation; 3/8/09

 

[chestertonrules]

Please explain to us how this verse implies ability on the part of "whosoever".

Every verse doesn't have to explain every point.

This passage merely assures us that WHOEVER means WHOEVER.

This does not assure that all men will week God, but we are assured the Jesus is drawing all men to himself, and that he stands at the door and knocks in other passages.

Man is responsible for accepting or rejecting these acts of grace.

 

[Hammster]

Every verse doesn't have to explain every point.

Right. Which is why you have to take it in context.

This passage merely assures us that WHOEVER means WHOEVER.

But it doesn't say what would make someone believe. Reformed theology doesn't argue with the whoever believes will be saved. The argument is what would make a dead man, who has no desire to know or acknowledge God, want to believe? Does something, or someone, change his heart?

This does not assure that all men will week God, but we are assured the Jesus is drawing all men to himself

How is He doing that?

and that he stands at the door and knocks in other passages.

Where does it say, in context of personal salvation, that Jesus stands at the door and knocks?

Man is responsible for accepting or rejecting these acts of grace.

So it is grace plus works? Kinda nullifies grace, doesn't it?

 

[Benefactor]

I admit that I took the closing Hell part a bit far, but the point was made. So from your viewpoint (correct me if I am wrong) then Jesus died for all sins of all men for all time. BUT, not believing isn't a sin,


All the explaining in the world is not going to change what the verse says. We can spend an eternity on shaping phrased, statements, questions, etc and it will not change the clear plain meaning of the verse. The death of Christ satisfied the sin debt for all which does not eliminate hell, or heaven, or anything in-between. It does not save or damn but makes salvation possible. Had Jesus not died no one could be saved. All who are not saved can be saved by believing in the Grace of God}

(The rest of what you say after the "believing isn't sin, is further positioning on this statement.)

but you still go to hell for it. So you are being punished for something that isn't a sin? Or is Hell intended for something else other than punishment? Hell is then what? For those not smart enough, or lucky enough to hear the gospel presented clearly? It can't be for doing their own thing, for rejecting God and putting themselves in place of God, for that is idolatry and that is a sin, but since Jesus atoned for all sin, then they can't be sent to hell for that. It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

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[chestertonrules]

Where does it say, in context of personal salvation, that Jesus stands at the door and knocks?



So it is grace plus works? Kinda nullifies grace, doesn't it?

Grace enables us to follow Jesus. If we don't follow, we won't go to heaven. How does this nullify grace?


John 12:31-32
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.


Rev 3
20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.


Please tell me why you think ALL means two different things in the same sentence:

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

Since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

 

[cygnusx1]

Thats an easy one. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."

yes the invitation is as wide as "whosoever"





but it is as narrow ; particular ; exclusive ; focused as "whosoever WILL" .... not whosoever will not.

 

[Hammster]

.

You can't, or won't, even define sin, then. Now I understand why you have your viewpoint.

 

[chestertonrules]

yes the invitation is as wide as "whosoever"





but it is as narrow ; particular ; exclusive ; focused as "whosoever WILL" .... not whosoever will not.

The limiting factor is human response to God's grace, not God's will.

God wants us all to follow his will.

Do you deny this?

 

[Hammster]

Grace enables us to follow Jesus. If we don't follow, we won't go to heaven. How does this nullify grace?

A work, by definition, is something we do. Grace is something done for us.

John 12:31-32
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Taking in context of all that Jesus taught, all people had to mean people from all over the world and for all time.

Rev 3
20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

You might want to go back and read that in context and see who He is talking to and what He is talking about..

Please tell me why you think ALL means two different things in the same sentence:

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

Since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Adam is the representative, the firstfruit, of the human race. Jesus is the representative, the firstfruit, of those whom He has chosen. And other reading will have to lead to universalism since justification is not only taking away the sins, but of making one right with God. How can God send someone to Hell whom He has made right?

 

[cygnusx1]

you need to rethink your theology! God is under obligation to save his people from their sins

wrong!

The false view of Calvinism says he elected some to be saved before he ever created the world. If he did, then he is under obligation to save them. However he did not!

i am amazed at this warped logic !

What he did was to bind himself under covenant promises to save them. It is called the covenants of promise. The new covenant promises Israel that God will give his Holy Spirit to indwell them. This is an obligation because he swore it with an oath, invoking his own name and character because he could sware by no higher authority.

the covenant is by Sovereign design , God is not obligated to forgive anyone , your logic is clouded by your prejudice.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

our debts are forgiven freely , God owes man nothing but condemnation , the wages of sin is death in contrast the FREE GIFT is eternal life .... you have confounded the two. oops!

The gentiles have by grace what was promised to the Jews in the covenants. Salvation through Christ! God surely had sworn to no covenants with us, but he said he would save us all if we would just receive his son. This is the crumbs which fell from the master's table.

and the multitude cried "crucify him , crucify him ........ here's the world's answer to grace , take seriously the warning in Romans 11 about thinking Gentiles are any better than Jews , .

This is glory ground and Calvinism has it wrong on almost every major doctrine in scripture, especially concerning his person.

I have read your posts over many Months , and I would say on many issues you fit this verdict far better!

I ask you to reconsider that he is under obligation to save whosoever will believe in Jesus Christ because he said he would. His word is his bond! He cannot lie!

You are conflating things that differ ........ Forgiveness is free , obligation is of necessity , God need not lie for His Grace to be FREE , God can make many promises none of which counter His freedom to LOVE , forgive or have mercy.

My Father left me some inheritance , he did it freely , he told me how he was going to do it , and he did it. A promise no matter how absolute does NOT alter or remove the CONDITIONS upon what is promised , it only makes it known just how sincere the promise is , in God's case immutable.

Immutability and FREEDOM are NOT mutually exclusive = God cannot sin and there is NONE FREE-ER than God.


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[Benefactor]

You can't, or won't, even define sin, then. Now I understand why you have your viewpoint.

sin1   /sɪn/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sin] Show IPA noun, verb, sinned, sin⋅ning.
–noun 1.transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam. 2.any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.3.any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.

 

[chestertonrules]

A work, by definition, is something we do. Grace is something done for us.

Grace ENABLES us to follow God. With God, all things are possible.

Taking in context of all that Jesus taught, all people had to mean people from all over the world and for all time.

Calvinist propaganda. That's not what the bible says. Why believe such a blatant distortion of the words of the bible?

You might want to go back and read that in context and see who He is talking to and what He is talking about..

I don't care if he is talking to you, me, or the citizens of Paris, France, the meaning doesn't change.

Adam is the representative, the firstfruit, of the human race. Jesus is the representative, the firstfruit, of those whom He has chosen. And other reading will have to lead to universalism since justification is not only taking away the sins, but of making one right with God. How can God send someone to Hell whom He has made right?

It doesn't say all will be justified, it says that because of Jesus all are LED to justification and life.

ALL die an Adam, ALL are made alive in Christ.

This means that ALL men are capable of following the will of Jesus.


What gives you the right to challenge the words of scripture?

 

[cygnusx1]

It doesn't say all will be justified, it says that because of Jesus all are LED to justification and life.

ALL die an Adam, ALL are made alive in Christ.

This means that ALL men are capable of following the will of Jesus.


What gives you the right to challenge the words of scripture?

OK........ , are all alive in Christ , howabout the Anti-Christ ; the false prophet , Judas , Esau , those Amalakites ... are these all alive IN CHRIST ...;.. does that mean that ALL men are capable of following the will of Jesus , even those in hell ?

btw , all men haven't the will to follow Jesus ... believing on Him is an act of grace , and a outworking of Election , the reason why many COULD NOT believe is because they were not Christs sheep .......

do yourself a favour read scripture and , the read Augustine and Aquinus.

 

[chestertonrules]

OK........ , are all alive in Christ , howabout the Anti-Christ ; the false prophet , Judas , Esau , those Amalakites ... are these all alive IN CHRIST ...;.. does that mean that ALL men are capable of following the will of Jesus , even those in hell ?

btw , all men haven't the will to follow Jesus ... believing on Him is an act of grace , and a outworking of Election , the reason why many COULD NOT believe is because they were not Christs sheep .......

do yourself a favour read scripture and , the read Augustine and Aquinus.

How about Judas? He chose to disobey God.

Those who lived before Christ didn't have the benefit of his atonement during their lives.

Esau became a Godly man and his people were honored by God for hundreds of years after his death. It was only after disobedience and betrayal that the Edomites became cursed.


I think it is you that needs to read some scripture, and by all means, Augustine and Aquinas.

St. Augustine(427 AD):

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards.

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God. The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such as wish to find an excuse for themselves from God Himself: The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart. Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man. The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will. Before man is life and death, and whichsoever pleases him shall be given to him. Sirach 15:11-17 Observe how very plainly is set before our view the free choice of the human will.

 

[Hammster]

It doesn't say all will be justified, it says that because of Jesus all are LED to justification and life.

ALL die an Adam, ALL are made alive in Christ.

This means that ALL men are capable of following the will of Jesus.


What gives you the right to challenge the words of scripture?

Using that logic, then, all aren't condemned, either, because it says that one trespass led to condemnation, not that all were condemned. So maybe I am okay after all.

 

[Hammster]

sin1   /sɪn/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sin] Show IPA noun, verb, sinned, sin⋅ning.
–noun 1.transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam. 2.any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.3.any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.

So does not accepting Christ fall under that definition?

 

[chestertonrules]

Using that logic, then, all aren't condemned, either, because it says that one trespass led to condemnation, not that all were condemned. So maybe I am okay after all.

We are all sinners, but we have been given the gift of grace which enables us to follow God's will through Christ.

We must follow the road of obedience and repentence with perseverence til the end!

The bible is very clear as to what God expects of us.

 

[Hammster]

We are all sinners, but we have been given the gift of grace which enables us to follow God's will through Christ.

We must follow the road of obedience and repentence with perseverence til the end!

The bible is very clear as to what God expects of us.

Your getting close. We are all sinners, but not all have been given the gift of grace. Just the elect.

 

[chestertonrules]

Your getting close. We are all sinners, but not all have been given the gift of grace. Just the elect.

That is an evil dogma that ignores much of the bible, as I have demonstrated.

You are spreading a corrupt gospel.