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Calvinism Refuted

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cygnusx1

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Calvinism Refuted Again - Limited Atonement

9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor,
so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

It is amazing the number of passages that refute Limited Atonement

the received text doesn't have "everyone" , or everyman , it is "every" , and the direct context is SONS !

another fallacy dealt with......
 
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cygnusx1

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I know that Calvinist do not ignore them. Now, from my side God's Absolute Knowledge does not eliminate the offer to all. In that God made his plan in Christ based on Foreknowledge this too involved the preaching of the truth in all dispensations. God's sees all of it in the NOW.

The Now is the same regardless of weather it is your view or mine. The difference is your side mandates some to be saved and some to be lost. My side offers the free gift of salvation and saves all who believe

Limited Atonment Refuted Yet Again

you still haven't grasped your dilema , you just continue speaking about foreknowledge , ignoring the absolute CERTAINTY of individuals who shall be damned rules OUT all possibility of the SAME being saved ... it's not rocket science !!

If you knew for certain that YOU would not get to live beyond this week would you book yourself a holiday (vacation) next year ? why !
 
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heymikey80

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I am not a student of Calvin, but some posit that he held to different views of this position over his life. In that he started out to be a Catholic Priest, perhaps his first belief did not include this view.

As Calvin was never a Catholic priest perhaps his first belief did include this view.
I have read not so long ago in some of the information on the net that Calve believed the Elect could fall from grace prior to death and in essence loose their salvation.

Normally this is a fabrication constructed from John Calvin's view of Assurance, not salvation.
As well, I don't recall when and where but, it is my understand that Sprol and his teacher, name escapes my memory at the present, that it was said of them that they made similar statements that if for some reason they died having not confessed their sins of the day they would in effect validate that they were not elect and split hell wide open.

What do you know of these things if at all?
I know they're false assertions. Required "daily confession of sins" is not an aspect of R.C. Sproul's theology, nor Gerstner's.
Limited Atonment - Refuted:

I Timothy 2:3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time

I Timothy 4:9. It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11. Prescribe and teach these things.
Clearly you didn't catch the meaning of the doctrine of Limited Atonement, Benefactor.

The basic assertion is that the Atonement actually saves the people. Either you're asserting Jesus actually did save "all men" and "all", or you're equivocating verses. The Atonement really atones for the sin of those it atones for.
I know that Calvinist do not ignore them. Now, from my side God's Absolute Knowledge does not eliminate the offer to all. In that God made his plan in Christ based on Foreknowledge this too involved the preaching of the truth in all dispensations. God's sees all of it in the NOW.

The Now is the same regardless of weather it is your view or mine. The difference is your side mandates some to be saved and some to be lost. My side offers the free gift of salvation and saves all who believe

Limited Atonment Refuted Yet Again
Limited Atonement misunderstood yet again.

If the poster knew what it meant, he'd be pointing out that his side is a view of limited atonement as well.
When the atonement is made universal its inherent value is destroyed. If it is applied to all men, and if some are lost, the conclusion is that it makes salvation objectively possible for all but that it does not actually save anybody. According to the Arminian theory the atonement has simply made it possible for men to co-operate with divine grace and thus save themselves — if they will. But tell us of one cured of disease and yet dying of cancer, and the story will be equally luminous with that of one eased of sin and yet perishing through unbelief. The nature of the atonement settles its extent. If it merely made salvation possible, it applied to all men. If it effectively secured salvation, it had reference only the elect. As Dr. Warfield says, "The things we have to choose between are an atonement of high value, or an atonement of wide extension. The two cannot go together." The work of Christ can be universalized only by evaporating its substance.

Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly as does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons (although as has already been shown, he believes that it is efficacious for the salvation of the large proportion of the human race); while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that in itself it does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge which goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge which goes only half-way across. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist. -- Loraine Boettner

 
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the received text doesn't have "everyone" , or everyman , it is "every" , and the direct context is SONS !

another fallacy dealt with......

Here are all the text traditions. If there were a variance (difference from one tradition to the next it would be highlighted. As you can see each tradition reads exactly the same. When you say the received text I am assuming you men the Textus Receptus. As you can see both the 1550 and the 1894 are the same.



The specific word in Red and underlined and the agreeing words in Red but not underline are the ones we are concerned with, the Greek word for every is underlined.

(Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
ton de bracu ti par aggelouV hlattwmenon blepomen ihsoun dia to paqhma tou qanatou doxh kai timh estefanwmenon opwV cariti qeou uper pantoV geushtai qanatou
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
ton de bracu ti par aggelouV hlattwmenon blepomen ihsoun dia to paqhma tou qanatou doxh kai timh estefanwmenon opwV cariti qeou uper pantoV geushtai qanatou
Byzantine Majority
ton de bracu ti par aggelouV hlattwmenon blepomen ihsoun dia to paqhma tou qanatou doxh kai timh estefanwmenon opwV cariti qeou uper pantoV geushtai qanatou
Alexandrian
ton de bracu ti par aggelouV hlattwmenon blepomen ihsoun dia to paqhma tou qanatou doxh kai timh estefanwmenon opwV cariti qeou uper pantoV geushtai qanatou
Hort and Westcott
ton de bracu ti par aggelouV hlattwmenon blepomen ihsoun dia to paqhma tou qanatou doxh kai timh estefanwmenon opwV cariti qeou uper pantoV geushtai qanatou )

The underlined word 'all" "every" is a pronominal adjective and is genitive masculine singular. The reason it is singular is because it agrees with the object it defines. The genitive case defines what it is "helping" Adjectives are helping words.

The word is very accurately translated everyone or everyman.

It is as correct as it can be and to change it or make it mean anything different is an outright violation of Greek grammar. It is impossible to make it mean anything else. That is how solid this verse is. No argument from me or any other person under the sun will change the clear meaning of this statement in context which is "every man" meaning all of mankind.
 
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you still haven't grasped your dilema , you just continue speaking about foreknowledge , ignoring the absolute CERTAINTY of individuals who shall be damned rules OUT all possibility of the SAME being saved ... it's not rocket science !!

If you knew for certain that YOU would not get to live beyond this week would you book yourself a holiday (vacation) next year ? why !

The verse refutes Limited Atonement. Our goal here is to show that God's word clearly refutes the TULIP.

10. Titus 2: 11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

 
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As Calvin was never a Catholic priest perhaps his first belief did include this view.

Normally this is a fabrication constructed from John Calvin's view of Assurance, not salvation.

I know they're false assertions. Required "daily confession of sins" is not an aspect of R.C. Sproul's theology, nor Gerstner's.

Clearly you didn't catch the meaning of the doctrine of Limited Atonement, Benefactor.

The basic assertion is that the Atonement actually saves the people. Either you're asserting Jesus actually did save "all men" and "all", or you're equivocating verses. The Atonement really atones for the sin of those it atones for.

Limited Atonement misunderstood yet again.

If the poster knew what it meant, he'd be pointing out that his side is a view of limited atonement as well.
When the atonement is made universal its inherent value is destroyed. If it is applied to all men, and if some are lost, the conclusion is that it makes salvation objectively possible for all but that it does not actually save anybody. According to the Arminian theory the atonement has simply made it possible for men to co-operate with divine grace and thus save themselves — if they will. But tell us of one cured of disease and yet dying of cancer, and the story will be equally luminous with that of one eased of sin and yet perishing through unbelief. The nature of the atonement settles its extent. If it merely made salvation possible, it applied to all men. If it effectively secured salvation, it had reference only the elect. As Dr. Warfield says, "The things we have to choose between are an atonement of high value, or an atonement of wide extension. The two cannot go together." The work of Christ can be universalized only by evaporating its substance.

Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly as does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons (although as has already been shown, he believes that it is efficacious for the salvation of the large proportion of the human race); while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that in itself it does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge which goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge which goes only half-way across. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist. -- Loraine Boettner


That is LB's Modus Operandi. I would not expect anything less than what you offer from his writings. He is what he is a Calvinist and his definition is crafted to support the non biblical view of limited atonement. Anyone can dance around the mulberry tree.
.
 
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heymikey80

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It's quite clear it doesn't refute Limited Atonement. Otherwise your view would be refuted as well, Benefactor. An atonement actually atones. Or it's not an atonement.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Who sees? "we see". What's "everyone"? A pronoun. What's it refer to? "angels"? Or "we"?

"All people", "all men" is a general term for "all mankind", as you've pointed out you've used it this way before, too.
 
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heymikey80

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That is LB's Modus Operandi. I would not expect anything less than what you offer from his writings. He is what he is a Calvinist and his definition is crafted to support the non biblical view of limited atonement. Anyone can dance around the mulberry tree.
.
Your argument's an ad hominem dance to skitter away from the argument. It attacks the person bringing a clear argument against your view. Funny how the pot calls the kettle black in this instance. "He is what he is ... and his definition is crafted to support the non biblical view of limited atonement," is quite a good characterization of your own anti-Calvinist view as stated so far.

With this logic it sounds like you're simply bagging every one of us as "Calvinists" as if that makes us inherently wrong. Interesting direction of the argument. Have you noticed that the regulations of these forums pretty-much demand that you deal with the argument, and not attack the person?

Do you think God will find that argument reasonable? That you can label people as "people I don't like" and then simply attack them with labels?

I'm finding myself in good company. "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Mt 5:11-12
 
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It's quite clear it doesn't refute Limited Atonement. Otherwise your view would be refuted as well, Benefactor. An atonement actually atones. Or it's not an atonement.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Who sees? "we see". What's "everyone"? A pronoun. What's it refer to? "angels"? Or "we"?

"All people", "all men" is a general term for "all mankind", as you've pointed out you've used it this way before, too.

The principal pronominal adjectives are, this, that, these, those, former, latter, which, what, each, every, either, neither, some, one, none, any, all, such, much, both, few, fewer, fewest, first last, little, less, least, many, more, most, own, some, several, sundry, enough.
Craig Alexandra; http://modernenglishusage.blogspot.com/2006/05/pronominal-adjectives.html ; 3/6/09
 
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cygnusx1

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It's quite clear it doesn't refute Limited Atonement. Otherwise your view would be refuted as well, Benefactor. An atonement actually atones. Or it's not an atonement.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Who sees? "we see". What's "everyone"? A pronoun. What's it refer to? "angels"? Or "we"?

"All people", "all men" is a general term for "all mankind", as you've pointed out you've used it this way before, too.

A W Pink writes ;

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb. 2:9).This passage need not detain us long. A false doctrine has been erected here on a false translation. There is no word whatever in the Greek corresponding to "man" in our English version. In the Greek it is left in the abstract—"He tasted death for every." The Revised Version has correctly omitted "man" from the text, but has wrongly inserted it in italics. Others suppose the word "thing" should be supplied—"He tasted death for every thing" —but this, too, we deem a mistake. It seems to us that the words which immediately follow explain our text: "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." It is of "sons"the apostle is here writing, and we suggest an ellipsis of "son"—thus: "He tasted death for every"—and supply son in italics. Thus instead of teaching the unlimited design of Christ’s death, Hebrews 2:9, 10 is in perfect accord with the other Scriptures we have quoted which set forth the restricted purpose in the Atonement: it was for the "sons" and not the human race our Lord "tasted death"
 
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cygnusx1

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The verse refutes Limited Atonement. Our goal here is to show that God's word clearly refutes the TULIP.

10. Titus 2: 11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

oh like this , right !


(1 Sam 15:1-3 NIV) Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. {2} This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. {3} Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

(Deu 25:17-19 NIV) Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. {18} When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. {19} When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

much later ;

2Thesalonians 2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
2Thesalonians 2:12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.




.
 
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A W Pink writes ;

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb. 2:9).This passage need not detain us long. A false doctrine has been erected here on a false translation. There is no word whatever in the Greek corresponding to "man" in our English version. In the Greek it is left in the abstract—"He tasted death for every." The Revised Version has correctly omitted "man" from the text, but has wrongly inserted it in italics. Others suppose the word "thing" should be supplied—"He tasted death for every thing" —but this, too, we deem a mistake. It seems to us that the words which immediately follow explain our text: "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." It is of "sons"the apostle is here writing, and we suggest an ellipsis of "son"—thus: "He tasted death for every"—and supply son in italics. Thus instead of teaching the unlimited design of Christ’s death, Hebrews 2:9, 10 is in perfect accord with the other Scriptures we have quoted which set forth the restricted purpose in the Atonement: it was for the "sons" and not the human race our Lord "tasted death"

Incredible master piece of eisegesis
 
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Limited Atonment Refuted / Calvinism Refuted

Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."


Acts 2
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
 
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nobdysfool

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Limited Atonment Refuted / Calvinism Refuted

Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."


Acts 2
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


Neither of those verses refute Limited Atonement, or Calvinism. For all your false accusations against Calvinists, you yourself are the master of eisegesis (please note how the word is spelled). Many of the arguments you attempt to mount against Calvinism are emotion-based. Like most anti-Calvinists, you constantly over-reach, and try to prove too much from too little, taking verses out of context, reading meanings into them that don't exist. Many times, the views you claim to be refuting are not Calvinist at all, but inventions of your own mind. We keep telling you that you cannot refute something that you clearly demonstrate you have no correct knowledge about, but it seemingly falls on deaf ears. We Calvinists know what we believe, and most of the time what is said that Calvinists believe by you and other anti-Calvinists here are not what we believe at all. You tell falsehoods about what we believe, and then get all defensive when we tell you and show you that they are falsehoods, as though it were highly offensive that we Calvinists should attempt to correct your wrong statements about Calvinism, and expose your lack of correct knowledge. Falsehoods told in ignorance are one thing, but when they are told deliberately, there is no other words for it than what it is: lying.
 
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Hammster

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Limited Atonment Refuted / Calvinism Refuted



Matthew 22

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."





Acts 2

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.



Context is king. In the first reference, if you look at the WHOLE parable you will see the an invitation was given (evangelism) and some rejected it and some didn't. But note the one who was kicked out. He is the equivalent of the tares among the wheat. Just because you come to church because it sounds good doesn't make you a Christian.

In the second instance, 3000 responded. The text doesn't say why. So that passage can't be use to support or refute either view.
 
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Unlimited Atonment - Disproved once again - Calvinism Disproved yet one more time.
  • 1. First of all, then, I urge that entreaties {and} prayers, petitions {and} thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2. for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
  • 3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
  • 5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,
  • 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time. 7. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
 
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Hammster

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Unlimited Atonment - Disproved once again - Calvinism Disproved yet one more time.

  • 1. First of all, then, I urge that entreaties {and} prayers, petitions {and} thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2. for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

  • 3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

  • 5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,

  • 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time. 7. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.



Since you won't address my last post, I guess I'll move on, too.

If you use this passage to defend your position, then you will have to accept univeralism because Jesus would then be a mediator between the Father and believers and also the Father and non-believers.
 
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Context is king. In the first reference, if you look at the WHOLE parable you will see the an invitation was given (evangelism) and some rejected it and some didn't. But note the one who was kicked out. He is the equivalent of the tares among the wheat. Just because you come to church because it sounds good doesn't make you a Christian.

In the second instance, 3000 responded. The text doesn't say why. So that passage can't be use to support or refute either view.


1. Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2. "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are {all} butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5. "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6. and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8. "Then he *said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9. 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find {there,} invite to the wedding feast.' 10. "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12. and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13. "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14. "For many are called, but few {are} chosen."



People are called - the ones chosen are the ones who accepted the call. One person who wanted to be there but on his terms was discovered and banished to outer darkness.

The bottom line: People were invited and the invitation required those that accept to wear certain type clothing. Some decided of their own free will not to come because the cared more about their daily affairs than going to the wedding, yet others accepted. The one that snuck in and did not wear the correct clothing he is like those who try to get saved by methods outside the prescribed method, he was like Elvis, “I did it my way”. In this parable he did not do it God's way, so he got kicked out.
 
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