Calvinism, explained.

[supersoldier71]

When I was first going to bible study and learning about the things of God, I came across a group of Calvanists (didn't even know what that meant at the time), and they led me down the road to despair because I had questions about salvation. They presumed that if I didn't know whether or not I was saved, then I must not be one of the chosen elect. So they basically shunned me and I felt hopeless for the longest time. The ones who did the presuming to be among the elect were quite arrogant in their attitude. I just can't believe this to be the outcome Christ wanted for people when He died for our sins.

It most certainly is NOT! The arrogance is a potential pitfall, no doubt, but there are folks from every theological bent who get it wrong from time to time, and it's a true mystery how anyone ever gets saved with humans involved.

Here's the thing: if God has already done what He needs to, and He allows people to walk away, why do we pray for the souls and salvation of the lost?

We are praying that God exercise His authority and power and draw people to Himself.

As we should.

 

[Aldebaran]

Just as in all things, there is a spectrum. Calvinists are not all the same, and this Calvinist (me) condemns the kind of stupidity that you had to deal with.

There are folks who are, "hyper Calvinists", and that may have been what you were dealing with. . .

But if the core of Calvinism is the presumption that the saved will know they are saved, and that people can't change what God has set in stone about who is going to be saved and who isn't (predestined), then I'm not sure what other conclusion a Calvanist can come to about someone who doesn't know whether they are saved or not, other than to assume the questioning person must not be saved and there's nothing they or anyone else can do to change it.

 

[Albion]

But if the core of Calvinism is the presumption that the saved will know they are saved....

It's not.

 

[supersoldier71]

But if the core of Calvinism is the presumption that the saved will know they are saved, and that people can't change what God has set in stone about who is going to be saved and who isn't (predestined), then I'm not sure what other conclusion a Calvanist can come to about someone who doesn't know whether they are saved or not, other than to assume the questioning person must not be saved and there's nothing they or anyone else can do to change it.

No one knows they're saved until they are saved, reborn, renewed, adopted into the family of the living God. No one is born saved, so the godly, Biblical assumption is that since faith comes by hearing, let me tell this person the good new of Jesus Christ!

I'm not sure about so-called hyper-Calvinism, but believers obviously have roles to play in salvation; I'm not sure what (violates ALL the rules of debate by admitting ignorance of something) that role is, but I know that when someone preaches the Gospel under the power and authority of the Holy Spirit, and the hearer has been given "ears" by that same Holy Spirit, a new believer "hears" the Gospel and believes. Notice this: it's the Spirit of God working in both the speaker and the hearer that makes this happen. The speaker is not God and cannot save anyone and the hearer is, to this point, spiritually dead: unable to respond to anything spiritual.

To God alone be glory!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But if the core of Calvinism is the presumption that the saved will know they are saved, and that people can't change what God has set in stone about who is going to be saved and who isn't (predestined), then I'm not sure what other conclusion a Calvanist can come to about someone who doesn't know whether they are saved or not, other than to assume the questioning person must not be saved and there's nothing they or anyone else can do to change it.

There is no such Calvinist presumption.

A wretched sinner like me who has greatly sinned against others and has been greatly sinned against as well, is like an abused dog at the shelter. It's been beaten and its bitten, so now a raised hand that intendeds to stroke the pup is mistaken for a hand that wishes to inflict pain. . . It takes many months or even years to understand and accept the love of Christ. We know that we don't deserve it, so it's understandably difficult to accept.

Doubting one's salvation can also have a lot to do with trying to earn it. In which case, Calvinism is the perfect cure.

 

[supersoldier71]

How could you say that God just walks away when He gives us the indwelling Holy Spirit, God Himself.

That is the silliest thing I have heard in a while.

Do you not know God's Word? He says "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU".

I missed this post before, but it's critically important because it demonstrates a significant point of commonality between the two points of view:

We all believe that the Holy Spirit of God indwells believers.


Which brings us to our point of divergence: the Arminianist point of view holds that GOD living in His believers is not sufficiently powerful to sustain their salvation to the end.

Scripture in no way supports this view.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It most certainly is NOT! The arrogance is a potential pitfall, no doubt, but there are folks from every theological bent who get it wrong from time to time, and it's a true mystery how anyone ever gets saved with humans involved.

Here's the thing: if God has already done what He needs to, and He allows people to walk away, why do we pray for the souls and salvation of the lost?

We are praying that God exercise His authority and power and draw people to Himself.

As we should.

Because those who are still alive can come to Christ still.

Not what you said.

 

[supersoldier71]

Because those who are still alive can come to Christ still.

Not what you said.

Precisely, my friend!

But are we not asking God to draw them? We are asking God to ignore their "freewill" and exert His will, power and authority.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But if the core of Calvinism is the presumption that the saved will know they are saved, and that people can't change what God has set in stone about who is going to be saved and who isn't (predestined), then I'm not sure what other conclusion a Calvanist can come to about someone who doesn't know whether they are saved or not, other than to assume the questioning person must not be saved and there's nothing they or anyone else can do to change it.

Interesting.

I never really thought about this deeply, but how does a Calvinist know they are saved? And why should we believe that God 'elected' them at all. We are taking their word for it.

In their scenario we would not pray for our unsaved family, friends and other people, because God has already made up His mind (In their opinion), but God Himself tells us to pray for others. So it contridicts God.

 

[tulipbee]

The Christ of Arminianism - died on the cross for every individual person
and thereby made it possible for every person to be saved. His death, apart
from the choice of man, was not able to actually save anyone for many for
whom he died are lost.

Calvinism explains,
The Christ of the Bible - died for only God's elect people and thereby
actually obtained salvation for all those for whom He died. His death was a
substitutionary satisfaction which actually took away the guilt of His
chosen people. (Luke 19:10, John 10:14-15 & 26, Acts 20:28, Rom. 5:10, Eph.
5:25, Hebr. 9:12, I Peter 3:18)

 

[supersoldier71]

Interesting.

I never really thought about this deeply, but how does a Calvinist know they are saved? And why should we believe that God 'elected' them at all. We are taking their word for it.

In their scenario we would not pray for our unsaved family, friends and other people, because God has already made up His mind (In their opinion), but God Himself tells us to pray for others. So it contridicts God.

Friend,

You misunderstand, but I'll try to clarify. First, the Calvinist holds that by virtue of being aware of our sin and depravity in comparison to the three-times holy God, by understanding that we can only approach God through the work of our Savior, this is the evidence that the "scales have fallen from our eyes" and that we are saved. We are further moved by the compulsion to learn about the Lord and enter into communion with Him. These are the evidences of our salvation. Externally, people notice the change. we are new creatures, born again of and by the Spirit of God.

"Taking [our] word for it"? Sure. But there should be some signs of the fruit of the Spirit to support it.

In our scenario, we MUST pray for others, because we hold that God Himself is in control. Under the Arminianist view, humans have control and God simply sits and waits. We are asking God to do what He promised He would, which is draw His own to Himself.

Further, we are commanded to pray for the salvation of others.

Why, would YOU pray for someone else if you believe that God cannot or will not take action to draw people to Him?

God bless.

 

[Albion]

Interesting.

I never really thought about this deeply, but how does a Calvinist know they are saved?

I thought we'd already covered this, but let's say it again...

"A Calvinist" does NOT know that he is saved. An opponent of Calvinism does not know that he is saved, either. No one knows FOR CERTAIN that he's saved. We trust, as believers, that we are, but this is not something we can prove absolutely.

However, we can make reasonable guesses. A person who lives "like a heathen" we can guess is not saved, while a person who is loving, charitable, devout, Christlike in all the ways that one would expect from a saved person we have reason to suspect is among those who are saved...but we don't know for sure. That's for God to know.

And why should we believe that God 'elected' them at all. We are taking their word for it.

No one is claiming that you should take their word for it, if they say this.

In their scenario we would not pray for our unsaved family, friends and other people, because God has already made up His mind (In their opinion), but God Himself tells us to pray for others. So it contridicts God.

Not really. Being among the Elect doesn't get you Heaven automatically, regardless of everything else in life. The Elect have been chosen to receive the Gospel and believe--to have Faith. They still need to have it come their way, so all the prayer, evangelism, preaching, and such is part of that process.

 

[GillDouglas]

In their scenario we would not pray for our unsaved family, friends and other people, because God has already made up His mind (In their opinion), but God Himself tells us to pray for others. So it contridicts God.

You can really stop making assumptions now. Why in all God's creation would anyone not pray for the unsaved? WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS SAVED! What do you have against the Calvinist that you continue this mission to slight us, put us down and make us out to be terrible people?

 

[tulipbee]

I thought we'd already covered this, but let's say it again...

"A Calvinist" does NOT know that he is saved. An opponent of Calvinism does not know that he is saved, either. No one knows FOR CERTAIN that he's saved. We trust, as believers, that we are, but this is not something we can prove absolutely.

However, we can make reasonable guesses. A person who lives "like a heathen" we can guess is not saved, while a person who is loving, charitable, devout, Christlike in all the ways that one would expect from a saved person we have reason to suspect is among those who are saved...but we don't know for sure. That's for God to know.


No one is claiming that you should take their word for it, if they say this.


Not really. Being among the Elect doesn't get you Heaven automatically, regardless of everything else in life. The Elect have been chosen to receive the Gospel and believe--to have Faith. They still need to have it come their way, so all the prayer, evangelism, preaching, and such is part of that process.

The new age positive thinking isn't working out for
the semi-Pelagianism because they let God help.

Being among the Elect is the result of having
been elected. THAT was done before the
creation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

Nowhere in the Bible does it say a "personal
relationship" elects us !

The whole concept of Election ...so frequently
mentioned in Scripture... has no meaning if
we elect ourselves.

 

[sdowney717]

Hebrews 11, describes the elect of God who are saved.
Dying in faith is a certainty. But what faith Hebrews and scriptures teaches us is truly about, of course, is only for the elect of God to understand.
Those who are not elect will not understand this in v13. Those who are in darkness will not understand-comprehend the light.

The Heavenly Hope
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.

15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.

16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

God has prepared for them a city, the city of God for them in a heavenly country where God and Christ are.

'but having seen them afar off' speaks of the revelation to the elect of the things of God, things that have not yet been recieved, but will be so, and so then the elect embrace them.

 

[Albion]

The whole concept of Election ...so frequently
mentioned in Scripture... has no meaning if
we elect ourselves.

Agreed. Has someone here maintained that we "elect" ourselves?

Or were you meaning that people who don't believe in Election are holding to another way of looking at the matter that is tantamount to arguing for self-election?

 

[tulipbee]

Agreed. Has someone here maintained that we "elect" ourselves?

Or were you meaning that people who don't believe in Election are holding to another way of looking at the matter that is tantamount to arguing for self-election?

Only the nonelect elect themselves and still
in danger of never really knowing Jesus.

An arminian illusion

 

[EmSw]

The Christ of Arminianism - died on the cross for every individual person
and thereby made it possible for every person to be saved. His death, apart
from the choice of man, was not able to actually save anyone for many for
whom he died are lost.

Do you not see the good news in that EVERYONE is able to be saved? Whereas, in Reformed beliefs, not everyone is afforded this wonderful blessing.

Jesus said this in Matthew 23:13 -
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men;

This is exactly the doctrine the Reformed believe. They shut up the kingdom to those who are 'foreordained' to eternal damnation.

John Calvin in his "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,

"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some , and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

The Reformed have effectively shut up the kingdom of heaven against men, reprobates they call them. Beware of their leaven.

Calvinism explains,
The Christ of the Bible - died for only God's elect people and thereby
actually obtained salvation for all those for whom He died. His death was a
substitutionary satisfaction which actually took away the guilt of His
chosen people. (Luke 19:10, John 10:14-15 & 26, Acts 20:28, Rom. 5:10, Eph.
5:25, Hebr. 9:12, I Peter 3:18)

Here again, is one of their own explaining how the kingdom of heaven is for only a 'select' few. Others are predestined to hell with no chance of entering the kingdom. Please be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, for wolves are roaming about. And, when wolves are cornered, they fight viciously to protect their own.

 

[Thursday]

You can really stop making assumptions now. Why in all God's creation would anyone not pray for the unsaved? WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS SAVED! What do you have against the Calvinist that you continue this mission to slight us, put us down and make us out to be terrible people?

You don't even know if you are saved. Calvinists have no impact on their own salvation, let alone the salvation of others.

I don't know why you bother posting here given your dogma.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The question, "How do you know that you are saved?" is not even the right question to ask. I don't want fire insurance, and He doesn't give it.

Here's what I know: I know that Jesus is the Christ; I know that He lived a perfect life and died a sinner's death, and He did this for people like me (sinners). I also know that I have nothing to bring to the table (other than my sin) so I know that there is nothing good within me that would merit God's favor. Lastly, I know that I am at His mercy, and I know that He is merciful; therefore, I place my body and soul in His hands.