Calvinism, explained.

[EmSw]

Only God causes the belief in his children. You're saying he doesn't. The physical things respond to God's wills and you're saying God isn't powerful enough to soften the hearts. Your questions can only be asked from a hard stony heart. If you're not careful, it will crack. You're getting more brittle on re-asking improper questions. You ought to leave your denomination and its beliefs. It doesn't sound right.

I guess I am going to have to accept God's predestination for my life. If I crack, it is not my fault. I didn't ask to be this way. If my questions are improper, you can thank God for this is predestined. I can't leave my denomination, I am not predestined to do so. I see God's predestination gives man no hope.

 

[EmSw]

No, your saying God's faith don't always work. I believe it works each and every time.

tulipbee, read carefully, it says they departed from the faith, not that it didn't work. Now you are being deceptive.

 

[tulipbee]

That's why I am asking questions. Show me where God does or doesn't predestine men to be lost sinners, under the power of Satan, and destined to hell. I can't find it, can you?

I found it and it's become a treasure in my heart. It's wonderful to trust God. Since you don't trust him, you don't want him to have that much control over you. You want to be free so you can enjoy boasting and praise yourself. No Calvinist will swim in the same sea you're in cause you don't understand. You can't find it cause you're not asking biblical questions. You think like men and want answers like men. It is found in the heart, a soften heart.

 

[tulipbee]

I guess I am going to have to accept God's predestination for my life. If I crack, it is not my fault. I didn't ask to be this way. If my questions are improper, you can thank God for this is predestined. I can't leave my denomination, I am not predestined to do so. I see God's predestination gives man no hope.

You'll have to accept predistination is in the bible. Just live with it. It isn't going away. It will never go away. Don't try to rid of it.

 

[EmSw]

I found it and it's become a treasure in my heart. It's wonderful to trust God. Since you don't trust him, you don't want him to have that much control over you. You want to be free so you can enjoy boasting and praise yourself. No Calvinist will swim in the same sea you're in cause you don't understand. You can't find it cause you're not asking biblical questions. You think like men and want answers like men. It is found in the heart, a soften heart.

Are you this super-spiritual person who looks down upon men? Tell me how this isn't boasting. You understand, I don't. You don't think like men, I do. No thanks, I don't want to be in that sea.

 

[EmSw]

You'll have to accept predistination is in the bible. Just live with it. It isn't going away. It will never go away. Don't try to rid of it.

I don't believe in blind faith. I'm beginning to think you don't know much about predestination, you are just parroting what you have heard others say.

 

[tulipbee]

tulipbee, read carefully, it says they departed from the faith, not that it didn't work. Now you are being deceptive.

From your rapid mouthing, your mind is too scattered. Birds eye view includes the context. You're speaking carelessly. They are departing from the faith, not the faith from them. "Faith" here is not some state of mind or substance to be possessed, but a confession/profession. Many who profess the faith will leave that profession.

 

[tulipbee]

I don't believe in blind faith. I'm beginning to think you don't know much about predestination, you are just parroting what you have heard others say.

God doesn't give blind faith

 

[sdowney717]

Wow, Calvinists say God gives faith, and these men departed from the faith. How can man undo what God gives? So, you are saying false teachers can have faith, which only God gives. Since you believe God gave you faith, how are you assured you won't depart from God's gift of faith?

Paul teaching here of departing from the faith means they were never saved.
Otherwise they would have remained in the faith, they are simply antichrists.
They depart from the church of the faithful who have true faith.
Note v19
v20 and v21 are those who have God's anointing, so then ELECT and know the truth and remain faithful.

Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[GillDouglas]

Doug, if I am understanding you correctly, God's plan is only for the final destiny for man. What happens in between is not God's plan. Everything in between is only a process to reach the final plan for man.

Wayne,

Thank you for the genuine questions my brother!

I know you've read me stating that God is the Author of ALL things, right? Just like the author of a book, God has the details of every single thing down in His plan. This includes how I would influence the world in my little bubble, or you in yours.

So far, I've seen three Reformed posters on here who do not believe God predestined everything. One even said God predestines everything, but changed that when speaking of man being born a lost sinner.

What exactly does predestination mean to you? Is everything predestined by God? Is God's plan the same as predestination?

I believe that predestination is just a term to describe God's plan. Often it is associated with salvation, but I believe it extends further into all aspects of the world. It is the acts, events, situations, etc. that God designed to reach a specific outcome the world is heading towards. There is not one thing that is excluded; for example nature, the devil and especially mankind.

Was the work you did for the devil predestined by God, or did He just let things happen by chance (as the Reformed like to say against the non-Calvinists)?

The work I did before my eyes were opened was predestined by God. It was those works, events, situations and my choices that brought me to the point where I came to know God. None of it came about by chance, though before understanding the truth I believed in luck, chance and coincidences. Each event happened as He had planned, and continue to do so.

How about those who depart from the faith? Did God predestine that, or would you say it's God's process to reach the final plan?

What would keep God from having you not depart from the faith? Do you even have a say in it?

I might need some clarification on this question. If you do not mean that they are lost again, salvation withdrawn, I can address the question. None that are His will become lost again, returning to their former self.

If you mean those that stumble, fall, and temporarily depart from the faith; I would say that this time period is for a specific purpose of unique growth, and entirely part of God's plan. I know you've read @Marvin Knox and his testimony regarding this exact thing. This time in his life put him exactly where God needed him to be, where he could be refined by the fire and come out of it better through God's grace.

Lord willing, neither of us will have to go through such a trying time as Marvin did.

 

[EmSw]

Paul teaching here of departing from the faith means they were never saved.
Otherwise they would have remained in the faith, they are simply antichrists.
They depart from the church of the faithful who have true faith.
Note v19
v20 and v21 are those who have God's anointing, so then ELECT and know the truth and remain faithful.

Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Does God give faith to the unsaved?
Besides, how can you depart from something you never had?

 

[EmSw]

Wayne,

Thank you for the genuine questions my brother!

I know you've read me stating that God is the Author of ALL things, right? Just like the author of a book, God has the details of every single thing down in His plan. This includes how I would influence the world in my little bubble, or you in yours.



I believe that predestination is just a term to describe God's plan. Often it is associated with salvation, but I believe it extends further into all aspects of the world. It is the acts, events, situations, etc. that God designed to reach a specific outcome the world is heading towards. There is not one thing that is excluded; for example nature, the devil and especially mankind.



The work I did before my eyes were opened was predestined by God. It was those works, events, situations and my choices that brought me to the point where I came to know God. None of it came about by chance, though before understanding the truth I believed in luck, chance and coincidences. Each event happened as He had planned, and continue to do so.


I might need some clarification on this question. If you do not mean that they are lost again, salvation withdrawn, I can address the question. None that are His will become lost again, returning to their former self.

If you mean those that stumble, fall, and temporarily depart from the faith; I would say that this time period is for a specific purpose of unique growth, and entirely part of God's plan. I know you've read @Marvin Knox and his testimony regarding this exact thing. This time in his life put him exactly where God needed him to be, where he could be refined by the fire and come out of it better through God's grace.

Lord willing, neither of us will have to go through such a trying time as Marvin did.

Doug, you are one of the Reformed I do really appreciate. You haven't thrown any insults my way, and have, quite honestly, answered my questions. I have nothing against you; I pray you continue to grow in the love and grace of God.

It's late here, and I am going to bed. I will answer your post tomorrow. God bless.

 

[tulipbee]

Two different definitions of faith.

"The gift of faith" could be the gift of faithfulness to the invisible church, or perhaps it could be a particular gifting for a particular imbuement of faith. (Such as an unusual confidence in the integrity of Scripture, or an unusual certainty that God will ultimately provide through hard trials or other such things)

"The faith" is more broad. That is simply Christianity, or the visible church.

I think that since the Timothy text was talking about a future people of a future time, we are not talking about a "departure" that was any sort of surprise, or shock to God. Their departure here is (quite literally) spoken of even before their birth.

 

[EmSw]

Two different definitions of faith.

"The gift of faith" could be the gift of faithfulness to the invisible church, or perhaps it could be a particular gifting for a particular imbuement of faith. (Such as an unusual confidence in the integrity of Scripture, or an unusual certainty that God will ultimately provide through hard trials or other such things)

"The faith" is more broad. That is simply Christianity, or the visible church.

I think that since the Timothy text was talking about a future people of a future time, we are not talking about a "departure" that was any sort of surprise, or shock to God. Their departure here is (quite literally) spoken of even before their birth.

Since we are a future people of a future time, could this 'departure' include you tulip?

 

[sdowney717]

Two different definitions of faith.

"The gift of faith" could be the gift of faithfulness to the invisible church, or perhaps it could be a particular gifting for a particular imbuement of faith. (Such as an unusual confidence in the integrity of Scripture, or an unusual certainty that God will ultimately provide through hard trials or other such things)

"The faith" is more broad. That is simply Christianity, or the visible church.

I think that since the Timothy text was talking about a future people of a future time, we are not talking about a "departure" that was any sort of surprise, or shock to God. Their departure here is (quite literally) spoken of even before their birth.

Jude contrasts those who are called and sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Christ for salvation versus false brethren who have snuck in unnoticed at first, but Jude says they will be noticed by their actions in the church as being of those
'long ago marked out for condemnation'
Implying what they would do was also judged by God beforehand prior to their birth, the fates of certain ones is foretold.

JudeNew King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[EmSw]

Wayne,

Thank you for the genuine questions my brother!

I know you've read me stating that God is the Author of ALL things, right? Just like the author of a book, God has the details of every single thing down in His plan. This includes how I would influence the world in my little bubble, or you in yours.

Doug, are you sure you want God to be the author of ALL things? That would include every sin, sickness, disease, war, false religion, divorce, evil empire, and false god. I myself would rather not attribute any of these things, in any way, to God. I see these things coming from man's freedom of choice between good and evil. Man, through his choice of evil, is the first cause of these things.

I believe that predestination is just a term to describe God's plan. Often it is associated with salvation, but I believe it extends further into all aspects of the world. It is the acts, events, situations, etc. that God designed to reach a specific outcome the world is heading towards. There is not one thing that is excluded; for example nature, the devil and especially mankind.

I don't have a problem with God 'planning' for some to attain heaven. However, when man says God 'planned' for some to go to hell, without any recourse, and leaving them to themselves, I begin to have huge problems. Hopefully you can understand why I feel this way.

The work I did before my eyes were opened was predestined by God. It was those works, events, situations and my choices that brought me to the point where I came to know God. None of it came about by chance, though before understanding the truth I believed in luck, chance and coincidences. Each event happened as He had planned, and continue to do so.

I don't believe God 'planned' for any man to have sin rule and ruin his life. We are told time after time in the Bible for man to forsake, remove, cast away, flee, depart from, and repent of his sin. To me, this is God's will and plan for man. Those who heed these life-giving words from God now have a plan for good, love, faith, and heaven for their lives.

God's plan from the beginning is to have man released from the bondage of sin, have man turn to God, and for man to live and enjoy the blessings and triumphs of a righteous life. No luck, no coincidence, and no chance.

I might need some clarification on this question. If you do not mean that they are lost again, salvation withdrawn, I can address the question. None that are His will become lost again, returning to their former self.

OSAS is another topic, which I think is best left to another thread.

If you mean those that stumble, fall, and temporarily depart from the faith; I would say that this time period is for a specific purpose of unique growth, and entirely part of God's plan. I know you've read @Marvin Knox and his testimony regarding this exact thing. This time in his life put him exactly where God needed him to be, where he could be refined by the fire and come out of it better through God's grace.

Lord willing, neither of us will have to go through such a trying time as Marvin did.

Every man who chooses to live for God will go through trials and temptations. Enduring temptations prove you have overcome and defeated the sin in your life. Failing temptations will not send one to hell, for we all fail at one time or another. However, we are not to live in this defeat and have it overcome us. I can guarantee if we fail, that temptation will come again and again, until we either, give in to it, or finally defeat it, with God's help of course.

 

[ToBeLoved]

From your rapid mouthing, your mind is too scattered. Birds eye view includes the context. You're speaking carelessly. They are departing from the faith, not the faith from them. "Faith" here is not some state of mind or substance to be possessed, but a confession/profession. Many who profess the faith will leave that profession.

What?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jude contrasts those who are called and sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Christ for salvation versus false brethren who have snuck in unnoticed at first, but Jude says they will be noticed by their actions in the church as being of those
'long ago marked out for condemnation'
Implying what they would do was also judged by God beforehand prior to their birth, the fates of certain ones is foretold.

JudeNew King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think that this is very specific to the law people who were denying that salvation is a gift from God and saying that these churches were still under the law. You sound like you have a totally different understanding. Care to expand on your thoughts?

 

[sdowney717]

I think that this is very specific to the law people who were denying that salvation is a gift from God and saying that these churches were still under the law. You sound like you have a totally different understanding. Care to expand on your thoughts?

Jude here is talking of ungodly people inside of the church.
If you read onward of what Jude tells us of their behavior, it shows they are led by their flesh and not by God's Spirit.
Paul also makes mention of such whose God is their belly and end is destruction, who deny Christ's cross and are totally self willed, self ruled, self lovers, who glory in their flesh, and are not lovers of Christ.

Jude has a very long list describing these people long ago marked out for condemnation and not salvation.
jude first off compares them to unbelievers at the time of Exodus, who afterwards when they came out with the people of God who did believe, God destroyed. Jude is saying that unbelievers will be in the church. and eventually will expose themselves by what they say and do. They are hell bent, and turn God's grace into an excuse for licentiousness, terrible immoral sexual behaviors, etc...

Here is Paul too in a similar vein, of certain ones, Paul actually calls them 'many' in a church, whom are not ruled by the Holy Spirit, so these are not saved people. They are 'doomed to destruction'. Contrasted with v20 onwards who are saved.

Philippians 3
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[tulipbee]

What?

With your busy mind, you forgot what we were talking about. That's OK, move on