Calvinism, explained.

[twin1954]

No, I am not going to give it up. it is precisely what Calvin argued for. Everything that happens, right down to the smallest detail, was all predetermined by God and happens exactly as he so predetermined it to be. That included all evil acts as well. If you want, I can quote you directly from his original "Institutes" on this matter.

I have and have read Calvin's "Insitutes" so there is no need. The fact is that you want to argue with Calvin but not against the theology that goes by the name of Calvinism. The theology has for a long time evolved and grown into what is now known as Calvinism. If you are honest, which you should be if you are going to claim to be a believer, you would actually find out what the theology called Calvinism actually is instead of building straw men which you can easily tear down. What you have done so far is nothing but a misrepresentation of the truth.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It is a shame that you didn't actually quote the context of my statement. Scared to? Or are you building a straw man?

I only commented to Patmos on a very short quotation from you that Patmos supplied for me in another conversation.

If it was taken out of context - it was Patmos who did so.

I have no idea, other than that one supposed quotation from you, what you believe.

If you'd like to tell me other things about what you believe - I may well comment on them.

We may well be in agreement on them.

I have no idea where you are coming from with the "scared to" and "straw man" concepts.

 

[Hoghead1]

I have and have read Calvin's "Insitutes" so there is no need. The fact is that you want to argue with Calvin but not against the theology that goes by the name of Calvinism. The theology has for a long time evolved and grown into what is now known as Calvinism. If you are honest, which you should be if you are going to claim to be a believer, you would actually find out what the theology called Calvinism actually is instead of building straw men which you can easily tear down. What you have done so far is nothing but a misrepresentation of the truth.

I have never found any Calvinists yet who have disagreed with Calvin's concept of predestination, not one. If they did, I should wonder why they are called Calvinists. Also, just what are you assuming I am claiming to be a believer in? I never told you anything about my beliefs.

 

[twin1954]

I only commented to Patmos on a very short quotation from you that Patmos supplied for me in another conversation.

If it was taken out of context - it was Patmos who did so.

I have no idea, other than that one supposed quotation from you, what you believe.

If you'd like to tell me other things about what you believe - I may well comment on them.

We may well be in agreement on them.

I have no idea where you are coming from with the "scared to" and "straw man" concepts.

I am sorry I meant my post to be directed at Patmos not you.

 

[twin1954]

I have never found any Calvinists yet who have disagreed with Calvin's concept of predestination, not one. If they did, I should wonder why they are called Calvinists. Also, just what are you assuming I am claiming to be a believer in? I never told you anything about my beliefs.

I disagree with Calvin on more than one issue. I actually believe the Scriptural doctrine of predestination which mean that God never predestines things He predestines people. He foreordains things. I call myself a Calvinist because it is much easier than explaining all the doctrines of grace that I hold to without compromise or apology to everyone I speak to. Calvinist seems to relate the basic truths I believe and rest my soul on as being Scriptural.

I did not assume anything but simply responded to what you wrote and the implications of it.

 

[EmSw]

"I do believe that God allows us to make choices that impact our salvation.
Neither I nor any Calvinist would say differently."

What choices do the reprobates who have been foreordained to hell have concerning their salvation?

Can they choose differently than what God foreordained for them?

 

[Hoghead1]

I disagree with Calvin on more than one issue. I actually believe the Scriptural doctrine of predestination which mean that God never predestines things He predestines people. He foreordains things. I call myself a Calvinist because it is much easier than explaining all the doctrines of grace that I hold to without compromise or apology to everyone I speak to. Calvinist seems to relate the basic truths I believe and rest my soul on as being Scriptural.

I did not assume anything but simply responded to what you wrote and the implications of it.

In Calvin, God predestines absolutely everything. Calvin is very, very clear on that.

 

[Albion]

That is precisely the problem with certain models of the Trinity. They argue for three separate, unique personalities who have in common Deity or divinity. But that is still tritheism. Three men have in common human nature, but are still three men. Also, yes, Scripture implies a kind of trinity, but does not work it out. The Trinitarian formulas all relied on extra-biblical material, such as substance metaphysics.

The formulas may have relied, to some extent on, extra-Biblical material for their EXPLANATION, but the fact of three persona (or something in that vein) being one God is entirely Scriptural. The Nicene Creed even makes an acknowledgment to Scripture.

I'd argue that if there is some awkwardness in all of this, it owes to our inability as humans to fully comprehend the nature of God. What we have is what He has revealed to us, and we need not press beyond that in order to know his Will and Intentions for us.

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinists are seriously contradicting themselves if they assume God allows us to make decisions for ourselves. Rather, it is assumed that God predestined everything, including all our decisions. When we may make a decision, we were preprogrammed to make that choice by God. That is not true decision-making.

God does allow men to make decisions for themselves, while knowing with absolute certainty (Foreknowledge) of what those choices will be, without influencing them, or making those decisions for them, as is falsely accused. Man is in a linear progression of temporal time, where cause precedes effect, and decisions are not made in a vacuum, but are built on previous decisions and choices, and their outcomes. Factor in man's nature and sometimes even we can deduce what decisions a man is likely to make in a given situation. But God knows with a certainty that we cannot even understand, and can work with those as yet undecided decisions and choices, to move events, people, and situations in the direction He has decided they should go. He IS God, after all...

 

[Marvin Knox]

God does allow men to make decisions for themselves, while knowing with absolute certainty (Foreknowledge) of what those choices will be, without influencing them, or making those decisions for them, as is falsely accused. Man is in a linear progression of temporal time, where cause precedes effect, and decisions are not made in a vacuum, but are built on previous decisions and choices, and their outcomes. Factor in man's nature and sometimes even we can deduce what decisions a man is likely to make in a given situation. But God knows with a certainty that we cannot even understand, and can work with those as yet undecided decisions and choices, to move events, people, and situations in the direction He has decided they should go. He IS God, after all...

How people can say that God's determining beforehand exactly what He would and would not allow to take place in history means somehow that those things cannot include the choices that men make is beyond me.

That isn't a logical conclusion.

It's as if "anti-Calvinists" think that somehow God just deciding what He will allow just as He faces the decision in history is more to be preferred than God deciding before history what He will allow.

Probably someone will jump in and talk about how Calvinists extend this idea right down to every atomic event. But then - to deny that is to deny the very Biblical truth that everything consists, in some mysterious way, of the Word of God and that it has it's existence "in Him".

For some reason some people think that railing against John Calvin and those of the same general philosophy will get them off the theological hook on this issue and issues like it.

 

[Patmos]

No – the doctrine of total depravity is that every facet of man’s being (body, soul, and sprit) has been negatively affected by the sin nature that we inherited from Adam.

Your objection seems to be with the doctrine of original sin. That’s a doctrine common to Calvinsts and Arminians alike.

That doctrine is further elaborated on by Jesus, Paul, and others.

“Fallen men can’t come unless drawn. We can’t understand spiritual things. We must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. God opened her eyes so that she could understand Paul. Given to the Son by the Father. Elect, chosen, predestined etc.” And on and on it goes – expanding on the concept of original sin and the effect of it on mankind.

Calvinists didn’t write all that stuff in the Bible. They just tried to make it all fit together systematically. In a few cases they messed it up. But in many more cases they pretty much hit the nail on the head.
God “made them that way” only in that they are justly under a curse because of sin.

I don’t like it any more than you do that men are born under the curse because of that first man’s sin. But the Bible teaches it.

But any man eventually goes to Hell because of his own sin and not because of original sin.

It would be better for a person who ends up in Hell to have never been born. I agree with the Lord on this point.

But the fact that God created/allowed/predestined/decreed or whatever other theological term one uses – doesn’t get God “off the hook” for what He did and is doing.

It doesn’t matter what heading you put on your belief system – if you believe the Bible – you’ll agree that it’s God’s show from start to finish.

He didn't have to make it so that anyone goes to Hell. He knew what would happen when He created man and put him in a garden with a tree that would kill him and a snake that would tempt him. He did it anyway.

I don't care what you choose to call the doctrine. Beating up on a certain group because they have named the doctrine something you don't like won't change those facts.

And if you don't realize that the Bible shows God giving more grace to some than to others - you just aren't paying attention.

Every time you pray for God to reveal Himself to a loved one you are agreeing that this giving of more grace to some than others is something you want Him to do for you.

He says He’s righteous and everything that He does is according to His good and perfect will.

Calvinists and I just agree that that’s the case and that we will likely have it all explained to us in due time.

twin1954 said: ↑

"What the OP states is not predestination it is fatalism. ...

He sovereignly has determined in His wisdom and power every breath and movement of every molecule in order to bring to pass good for His people and the glory of His great name."
I disagree with this person's conclusion.

The statement is right on.

Gotta go. See you in a day or two.

I not arguing against what you believe, rather that what you believe is not that Calvinistic. E.g your description of TD. Despite whatever you call yourself and whatever I call myself, we are very much in accord (I think).

Anyway, be blessed.

 

[Patmos]

I have never found any Calvinists yet who have disagreed with Calvin's concept of predestination, not one. If they did, I should wonder why they are called Calvinists. Also, just what are you assuming I am claiming to be a believer in? I never told you anything about my beliefs.

Copied from :- BobRyan in the GT thread
==========================

Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely sovereign, he "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass," (Westminster Confession).

http://www.theopedia.com/predestination

==========================

 

[EmSw]

How people can say that God's determining beforehand exactly what He would and would not allow to take place in history means somehow that those things cannot include the choices that men make is beyond me.

That isn't a logical conclusion.

It's as if "anti-Calvinists" think that somehow God just deciding what He will allow just as He faces the decision in history is more to be preferred than God deciding before history what He will allow.

Probably someone will jump in and talk about how Calvinists extend this idea right down to every atomic event. But then - to deny that is to deny the very Biblical truth that everything consists, in some mysterious way, of the Word of God and that it has it's existence "in Him".

For some reason some people think that railing against John Calvin and those of the same general philosophy will get them off the theological hook on this issue and issues like it.

Marvin, did God predestine you to be a lost sinner?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Copied from :- BobRyan in the GT thread
==========================

Predestination in its broadest conception is the doctrine that because God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and completely sovereign, he "from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass," (Westminster Confession).

http://www.theopedia.com/predestination
==========================

Patmos -

Do you see something in that confession that says anything about those things that come to pass not including the fact that God creates men with wills and includes what they choose to do in His predestination.

I don't. I'm sure that the framers of the Westminster didn't either. Nor do I think that John Calvin would if he had lived to see the WCF.

If you do - please tell me take me through your train of logic.

How much the fall has effected man's ability to choose correctly regarding spiritual things and how God remedies that condition are different theological points and deserve addressing separately.

I'm just referring to the over aching concept of predestination here. Not "fairness", "election", or any other thing that may be brought up.

I'm just asking about this one statement about the meaning of predestination - since so many seem to think that it means men are just robots etc. (which they are clearly not - being created in the image of God).

 

[EmSw]

I'd argue that if there is some awkwardness in all of this, it owes to our inability as humans to fully comprehend the nature of God. What we have is what He has revealed to us, and we need not press beyond that in order to know his Will and Intentions for us.

Albion, where has the following been revealed to man?

Chapter III
God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

How can man know God's will from all eternity? Where did God reveal to man that He unchangeably ordains whatsoever comes to pass?

 

[Patmos]

Any chance that you could supply Calvin's writing in English for us?

 

[sdowney717]

2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

As did Jesus also tell some Jews, they were not free but slaves of sin having Satan as their father.
Man in his natural unregenerated condition has a certain freedom of will, but chooses according to that which he is enslaved, so then they willfully choose the sinful desires of the flesh. Those are the logical choices of the natural enslaved mind. Such a mind will not take up and bear the cross of Christ willingly to crucify the passions of the flesh.

But those who belong to Christ will with God's transformative power working within them. That is a fact, those who are in the flesh can not please God, all unregenerate persons can not please God, they are natural man, not spiritual man. We are be worshipping God in SPIRIT and in TRUTH, something the world can never know.

Galatians 5
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

 

[Patmos]

The doctrine of predestination was for Calvin a “horrible decree” but, even more, it was “very sweet fruit.” He did not pretend to understand it fully, for that would require that he comprehend God. Yet he could confidently pronounce, “even though… predestination is likened to a dangerous sea, still in traversing it, one finds safe and calm—I add also pleasant—sailing.”


“Let this be our conclusion,” Calvin writes at the close of his discussion of predestination in the Institutes, “to tremble with Paul at so deep a mystery; but, if froward tongues clamor, not to be ashamed of this exclamation of his: ‘Who are you, O man, to argue with God?’ ”


http://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...oth-horrible-decree-and-very-sweet-fruit.html

 

[EmSw]

It's as if "anti-Calvinists" think that somehow God just deciding what He will allow just as He faces the decision in history is more to be preferred than God deciding before history what He will allow.

Allow? Why do you now include this word within the confines of predestination? Of all the sites I've visited, NONE include 'allow' in their definition of predestination. The word I see used most is 'decide'. Deciding is not allowing.

 

[Patmos]

Allow? Why do you now include this word within the confines of predestination? Of all the sites I've visited, NONE include 'allow' in their definition of predestination. The word I see used most is 'decide'. Deciding is not allowing.

Neither is decree.