Calvinism and its Secret Universalism

[BNR32FAN]

Of course you think he’s correct. But I’m sure that you also can’t give an explanation to any of the points of Reformed Theology in a way that a Calvinist would.

Of course I can’t, not without contradicting scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yeah, because it’s easier to have a surface-level response and get lots of “likes” that way.

Coming from someone who repeatedly refuses to explain how certain verses don’t contradict his theology, namely John 15:6 and 2 Timothy 2:12.

 

[Hammster]

Of course I can’t, not without contradicting scripture.

Go ahead and try. This should be fun. What argument would a Calvinist use to support preservation of the Saints?

 

[Hammster]

Coming from someone who repeatedly refuses to explain how certain verses don’t contradict his theology, namely John 15:6 and 2 Timothy 2:12.

What’s to explain? They don’t contradict Reformed Theology. If you made a post where you actually explained what they meant in context, I missed it and I apologize. All I recall is you just posting links to those verses as if that explains everything.

 

[Hammster]

Better yet, here’s a thread from a few years ago.

The New “No Straw Man” challenge

 

[BNR32FAN]

Go ahead and try. This should be fun. What argument would a Calvinist use to support preservation of the Saints?

We just had this argument yesterday so obviously you would use John 10.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What’s to explain? They don’t contradict Reformed Theology. If you made a post where you actually explained what they meant in context, I missed it and I apologize. All I recall is you just posting links to those verses as if that explains everything.

Oh I did explain them yesterday

Well I guess that all depends on which perspective your viewing salvation from. From a perspective of those who are written in the book of life I would agree with you but from the perspective of those who had salvation and lost it because they didn’t remain in Christ and as a result were not written in the book of life I would have to disagree. These people were in Christ and the implications in John 15:1-7 indicate that even Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles were capable of falling away. Even Paul himself said that both he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and were also capable of being denied by Christ in 2 Timothy 2:12. So that’s pretty undeniable evidence that people who are saved can lose their salvation if they turn away from Christ.

And this was your reply

Nobody loses salvation.

I gave an explanation and you did nothing but dodge the verses despite my request for an explanation several times.

 

[Hammster]

We just had this argument yesterday so obviously you would use John 10.

In what way?

 

[Hammster]

Oh I did explain them yesterday



And this was your reply



I gave an explanation and you did nothing but dodge the verses despite my request for an explanation several times.

Okay. I didn’t realize that was an explanation.

So here’s a response in kind.

No, John 15:1-11 doesn’t indicate that His 11 could fall away. It does indicate that the Father is responsible for the fruit produced. Only the ones who appear to be in the vine but aren’t (because if the were, they’d bear fruit) will be tossed aside. This comes right after Jesus sends Judas off. That’s the context. There would be a point where the disciples would question how a disciple could turn on Jesus. From their point of view, he was just like them.


Once you provide the context of 2 Timothy 2, I’ll respond.

 

[zoidar]

@Hammster: Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 and Romans 9 ?

 

[Hammster]

@Hammster: Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 and Romans 9 ?

?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Only the ones who appear to be in the vine but aren’t (because if the were, they’d bear fruit) will be tossed aside.

Ok here’s where you contradict what Jesus actually said. Jesus said these branches are in Him and you’re saying they appear to be in Him but they really aren’t. Your confusing these branches with tares, but tares are planted by the evil one. No one comes to Christ unless The Father draws him. If Jesus said these branches are in Him then I’m not going to contradict that, I’m going to accept it just as He stated it. No one can be in Christ unless The Father has drawn them so these are not tares or false professors.

This comes right after Jesus sends Judas off. That’s the context.

Judas was a tare planted by the evil one. He’s the same exact kind of person mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23. He never had a personal relationship with Christ and is the type of person to whom Christ would say “I never knew you”. Jesus never makes any mention of Judas in the entire chapter. He is addressing His 11 faithful apostles. In verse 4 He says to them

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He tells them to abide in Him which means to either stay, remain, continue, or dwell in Him. We already know that they are residing in Christ because He says several times this very night that they are not of this world which means they are of the Spirit, hence they are in Christ at this time. So the meaning that is being used here is to stay, remain or continue to be in Him. There’s no point in telling someone to remain in Christ if they are incapable of falling away. There’s no point in saying the words “unless you remain in Me” if they are incapable of falling away.

verse 5

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here Jesus again explain why they must remain in Him.

Verse 6

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here Jesus makes it clear that ANYONE, not excluding the apostles or anyone else, who does not remain in Him is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Why would Jesus give a consequence for something that is impossible to do? That’s like me telling my 2 year old son “son, if you invent a perpetual motion machine that works I will ground you for a month” or “don’t you dare discover cold fusion or I’ll spank your behind!!” If the consequence is real then the cause for the consequence has to be just as real otherwise it’s nonsense.

Verse 7 and here’s a really big indicator

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now why would He say “IF you abide in Me” if they are incapable of falling away? He’s laying down a condition that must be met in order to receive the reward that is promised. If they were incapable of falling away then the reward would be automatically given and it should’ve been worded “since you abide in Me” or “because you abide in Me”.

So there are several implications in John 15:1-7 that a person can in fact fall away from Christ, not just one or two but six by my count. Each of these implications are building upon and strengthening each other that a person can fall away from Christ, and that even His 11 faithful apostles were capable of doing it.

Just like I pointed out in 2 Timothy 2:12 which you said I never provided the context. This is just you stalling because you don’t want to discuss the verse. I did provide an explanation of it but you declined to comment on the subject or give any explanation at all as to why my interpretation is incorrect. It’s pretty straight forward and self explanatory. “If we deny Him, He will deny us”. Is Paul explaining an impossible scenario here? No, he’s not because that wouldn’t make any sense at all to give this warning of committing a sin that is impossible for them to commit or consequences that are impossible to receive.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In what way?

Why are you asking me? You just used this argument yesterday so why are you asking me this?

 

[Hammster]

Ok here’s where you contradict what Jesus actually said. Jesus said these branches are in Him and you’re saying they appear to be in Him but they really aren’t. Your confusing these branches with tares, but tares are planted by the evil one. No one comes to Christ unless The Father draws him. If Jesus said these branches are in Him then I’m not going to contradict that, I’m going to accept it just as He stated it. No one can be in Christ unless The Father has drawn them so these are not tares or false professors.



Judas was a tare planted by the evil one. He’s the same exact kind of person mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23. He never had a personal relationship with Christ and is the type of person to whom Christ would say “I never knew you”. Jesus never makes any mention of Judas in the entire chapter. He is addressing His 11 faithful apostles. In verse 4 He says to them

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He tells them to abide in Him which means to either stay, remain, continue, or dwell in Him. We already know that they are residing in Christ because He says several times this very night that they are not of this world which means they are of the Spirit, hence they are in Christ at this time. So the meaning that is being used here is to stay, remain or continue to be in Him. There’s no point in telling someone to remain in Christ if they are incapable of falling away. There’s no point in saying the words “unless you remain in Me” if they are incapable of falling away.

verse 5

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here Jesus again explain why they must remain in Him.

Verse 6

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here Jesus makes it clear that ANYONE, not excluding the apostles or anyone else, who does not remain in Him is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Why would Jesus give a consequence for something that is impossible to do? That’s like me telling my 2 year old son “son, if you invent a perpetual motion machine that works I will ground you for a month” or “don’t you dare discover cold fusion or I’ll spank your behind!!” If the consequence is real then the cause for the consequence has to be just as real otherwise it’s nonsense.

Verse 7 and here’s a really big indicator

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now why would He say “IF you abide in Me” if they are incapable of falling away? He’s laying down a condition that must be met in order to receive the reward that is promised. If they were incapable of falling away then the reward would be automatically given and it should’ve been worded “since you abide in Me” or “because you abide in Me”.

So there are several implications in John 15:1-7 that a person can in fact fall away from Christ, not just one or two but six by my count. Each of these implications are building upon and strengthening each other that a person can fall away from Christ, and that even His 11 faithful apostles were capable of doing it.

Just like I pointed out in 2 Timothy 2:12 which you said I never provided the context. This is just you stalling because you don’t want to discuss the verse. I did provide an explanation of it but you declined to comment on the subject or give any explanation at all as to why my interpretation is incorrect. It’s pretty straight forward and self explanatory. “If we deny Him, He will deny us”. Is Paul explaining an impossible scenario here? No, he’s not because that wouldn’t make any sense at all to give this warning of committing a sin that is impossible for them to commit or consequences that are impossible to receive.

The non-fruit bearing branches are apostates. The proof of this is that they never bore fruit. They professed faith (like Judas) but were not true believers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The non-fruit bearing branches are apostates. The proof of this is that they never bore fruit. They professed faith (like Judas) but were not true believers.

Apostates are people who turn away from Christ. Jesus didn’t say that everyone who comes to Him will bear fruit, He said everyone who remains in Him will bear much fruit. Like the example I gave in Luke 13:6-9

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

When a person comes to Christ God gives them time to bear fruit, if after a certain time they fail to do so they are cut off.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Apostates are people who turn away from Christ. Jesus didn’t say that everyone who comes to Him will bear fruit, He said everyone who remains in Him will bear much fruit. Like the example I gave in Luke 13:6-9

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

When a person comes to Christ God gives them time to bear fruit, if after a certain time they fail to do so they are cut off.

Judas is not an example of Luke 13:6-9

Jesus knew Judas would never be saved. Never believe and obey God. Judas never was a branch.

John 13:18-19
I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but what the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heal against Me.
Now I tell you before it comes that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

 

[Hammster]

Apostates are people who turn away from Christ. Jesus didn’t say that everyone who comes to Him will bear fruit, He said everyone who remains in Him will bear much fruit. Like the example I gave in Luke 13:6-9

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

When a person comes to Christ God gives them time to bear fruit, if after a certain time they fail to do so they are cut off.

Unfortunately, that parable doesn’t support your assertion. It wasn’t about individuals, but about Jerusalem.

But let me see if I can flesh out your understanding. You say that Christ gives people time to bear fruit, and then are cut off after a certain time. If that’s the case, then once they bear fruit, they can never be lost, correct?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Judas is not an example of Luke 13:6-9

Jesus knew Judas would never be saved. Never believe and obey God. Judas never was a branch.

John 13:18-19
I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but what the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heal against Me.
Now I tell you before it comes that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

Judas never knew Jesus, he never entered into an intimate relationship with Him. He had been stealing money from the treasury during the time he was following Jesus. According to the scriptures it appears as if this happened several times.

 

[zoidar]

?

The stronghold of Calvinism?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Unfortunately, that parable doesn’t support your assertion. It wasn’t about individuals, but about Jerusalem.

But let me see if I can flesh out your understanding. You say that Christ gives people time to bear fruit, and then are cut off after a certain time. If that’s the case, then once they bear fruit, they can never be lost, correct?

No because Paul and Timothy both bore fruit and Paul said that if they deny Christ He will deny them.