Calvinism and its Secret Universalism

[Hammster]

John 15:6 says they can.

Not saved folks.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not saved folks.

Well I guess that all depends on which perspective your viewing salvation from. From a perspective of those who are written in the book of life I would agree with you but from the perspective of those who had salvation and lost it because they didn’t remain in Christ and as a result were not written in the book of life I would have to disagree. These people were in Christ and the implications in John 15:1-7 indicate that even Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles were capable of falling away. Even Paul himself said that both he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and were also capable of being denied by Christ in 2 Timothy 2:12. So that’s pretty undeniable evidence that people who are saved can lose their salvation if they turn away from Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Well I guess that all depends on which perspective your viewing salvation from. From a perspective of those who are written in the book of life I would agree with you but from the perspective of those who had salvation and lost it because they didn’t remain in Christ and as a result were not written in the book of life I would have to disagree. These people were in Christ and the implications in John 15:1-7 indicate that even Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles were capable of falling away. Even Paul himself said that both he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and were also capable of being denied by Christ in 2 Timothy 2:12. So that’s pretty undeniable evidence that people who are saved can lose their salvation if they turn away from Christ.

Nobody loses salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nobody loses salvation.

Evidence-the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid

 

[Hammster]

Evidence-the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
— John 15:2

The Vinedresser is responsible for fruit bearing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

The Shepherd doesn’t lose sheep.


My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

The Father gives the sheep to the Son. If the Son loses any sheep, then He’s not a good and faithful servant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
— John 15:2

The Vinedresser is responsible for fruit bearing.

He just said that not all branches that are in Him bear fruit. Some are “taken away” for not bearing fruit. The Greek word translated to “take away” means to cut off or remove that which is attached to anything. You’ll find a similar example in Luke 13:6-9. Notice that even despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down. So you are incorrect sir, the tree still has the option to refuse to bear fruit.

 

[Hammster]

He just said that not all branches that are in Him bear fruit. Some are “taken away” for not bearing fruit. The Greek word translated to “take away” means to cut off or remove that which is attached to anything. You’ll find a similar example in Luke 13:6-9. Notice that even despite Jesus’ efforts to save the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down. So you are incorrect sir, the tree still has the option to refuse to bear fruit.

Who is responsible for branches bearing fruit?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who is responsible for branches bearing fruit?

Both parties, it’s a result of our cooperation with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Both parties, it’s a result of our cooperation with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Who is responsible for the sheep?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who is responsible for the sheep?

Both, God has granted His grace to everyone enabling us to either accept or reject the gospel.

Edit: Now I do admit that I’m not certain exactly when a person receives grace. Whether this has already taken place for everyone or if this takes place at a different time for each individual I’m not sure of.

 

[Hammster]

Both, God has granted His grace to everyone enabling us to either accept or reject the gospel.

Edit: Now I do admit that I’m not certain exactly when a person receives grace. Whether this has already taken place for everyone or if this takes place at a different time for each individual I’m not sure of.

If the Father gives sheep to the Son, doesn’t that make the Son responsible? Especially if He calls Himself a Shepherd? It would seem to me that the number one responsibility of a Shepherd is to not lose sheep.

 

[zoidar]

If the Father gives sheep to the Son, doesn’t that make the Son responsible? Especially if He calls Himself a Shepherd? It would seem to me that the number one responsibility of a Shepherd is to not lose sheep.

Not a bad argument! I sure hope you are right, but I doubt you are. Would be great to know whatever I do, I can never lose salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Not a bad argument! I sure hope you are right, but I doubt you are. Would be great to know whatever I do, I can never lose salvation.

If you are a sheep, I think it’s okay to trust the Shepherd.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If the Father gives sheep to the Son, doesn’t that make the Son responsible? Especially if He calls Himself a Shepherd? It would seem to me that the number one responsibility of a Shepherd is to not lose sheep.

Your stretching the analogy in such a way that contradicts scripture. Obviously it cannot be used in every sense that a shepherd tends to a flock. A shepherd also shears the wool but that doesn’t mean that Jesus is a cosmetologist going around giving everyone haircuts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not a bad argument! I sure hope you are right, but I doubt you are. Would be great to know whatever I do, I can never lose salvation.

If he was right then John 15:6 and 2 Timothy 2:12 would be impossible.

 

[Hammster]

Your stretching the analogy in such a way that contradicts scripture. Obviously it cannot be used in every sense that a shepherd tends to a flock. A shepherd also shears the wool but that doesn’t mean that Jesus is a cosmetologist going around giving everyone haircuts.

Jesus said He’s a Shepherd and wouldn’t lose any.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

I’m not stretching.

 

[Hammster]

If he was right then John 15:6 and 2 Timothy 2:12 would be impossible.

Well, your understanding is impossible anyway.

 

[zoidar]

If he was right then John 15:6 and 2 Timothy 2:12 would be impossible.

I suppose...

 

[zoidar]

Jesus said He’s a Shepherd and wouldn’t lose any.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
— John 10:27-28

I’m not stretching.

Great verses for someone that struggles.

 

[Hammster]

Great verses for someone that struggles.

They really are. When you worry about whether you are good enough, you never can know if you are.