Calvinism and Abortion

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And again, I've never used the term "dragging", only you have. You can stop any time now since I don't think there is any sort of dragging going on. It's not strengthening anything you say.

Then stop saying Calvinistic teachers are great Theologians, and stop disagreeing with those in other threads when somebody knocks Calvinism. Calvinists believe that a person is being dragged against their own free will to believe in Christ.

 

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@SPF

You said, I quote: “Why can’t they come to Christ out of their own free will? That, is what I find interesting.” ~ SPF.

This statement implies a dragging against one's own free will. For if it does not involve free will, then a person is being forced against their own free will. For if there is no free will, then God is making the choice for them.

Yet, you contradict yourself and essentially say that there is no dragging going on in John 6:44.

 

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Nope, I sure don't, nor have I ever suggested such a thing.

Got it and agree.

Got it. However, what you still haven't addressed is why these Believing Jews must first be drawn before they can accept Christ. Again, I bring this up in almost every response, and in every response you ignore the question.

The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

Got it. But again, the problem is that they must be drawn by the Father before coming to Christ. I can't seem to understand why this drawing by the Father must happen in order for them to come to Christ.

I hope that's only the case prior to the death/resurrection of Jesus on the cross!

Correct, and then after that, they need to be drawn by the Father also before coming to Jesus. And that's where all my questions come from, yet you still seem to ignore them or just talk about other stuff.

Cool, my questions stem from the other Jews that the Father was drawing.

And again, I've never used the term "dragging", only you have. You can stop any time now since I don't think there is any sort of dragging going on. It's not strengthening anything you say.

So if “draw” does not mean “drag” then what does it mean in your own words?
Do you believe no free will of any kind takes place in John 6:44-45?
You said before that you don't believe in God overriding a person's free will.
Do you care to explain this in light of John 6:44-45?
Do you care to explain what you mean in how your view is different than mine and yet different from Calvinism?

 

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I believe it is true that no Jew who has not heard and learned of the Father can come to Christ of their own free will. However, this does not mean there is no free will involved in coming to Christ for the Jew before the cross. The Jew has to first of their own free will hear and learn of the Father in order to be drawn (inclined, nudged, pointed to) in coming to Jesus.

But times are different after the cross. Jesus now draws all men unto Himself because He has been lifted up (See: John 12:32).

 

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....

 

[SPF]

You sure do like to type and make multiple posts. Yet, you haven't yet responded to my most recent reply, #475 You've just spent a lot of time going off topic. I'll condense my reply #475 to hopefully help you respond to what is most important.

Their will is not being bent, but they are being drawn. I can be drawn or inclined to a certain thing or hobby, but that does not mean I cannot refuse what I feel drawn to.

Got it. However, what you still haven't addressed is why these Believing Jews must first be drawn before they can accept Christ. Again, I bring this up in almost every response, and in every response you ignore the question.

The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

Step #1. - HEARD and LEARNED of the Father type Jews under the Old Covenant are...
Step #2. - Drawn or inclined (not dragged against their free will) to come to Jesus.

Got it. But again, the problem is that they must be drawn by the Father before coming to Christ. I can't seem to understand why this drawing by the Father must happen in order for them to come to Christ.

They first need to HEAR and LEARN by the Father in order to come to Jesus.

Correct, and then after that, they need to be drawn by the Father also before coming to Jesus. And that's where all my questions come from, yet you still seem to ignore them or just talk about other stuff.

 

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@SPF

You appear to disagree with me, and yet you deny the terms by Calvnists. Yet, you praise Calvinists, and you hint that there is no free will. Yet, you deny God overrides a person's free will and or that God drags a person to Him. So how is your belief different than mine vs. Calvinism? Why praise Calvinists if you do not agree with their claims that there is no free will in choosing God?

So it sounds like either:

(a) You are inventing your own terms, or
(b) You have not fully decided what you believe on this topic.
(c) You don't actually know what Calvinists believe because you praise them and yet you deny what they teach, and yet you appear to be against anyone teaching free will in John 6:44-45.

 

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You sure do like to type and make multiple posts. Yet, you haven't yet responded to my most recent reply, #475 You've just spent a lot of time going off topic. I'll condense my reply #475 to hopefully help you respond to what is most important.

Got it. However, what you still haven't addressed is why these Believing Jews must first be drawn before they can accept Christ. Again, I bring this up in almost every response, and in every response you ignore the question.

The problem is that according to verse 44, all of these Believing in the Father Jews must first be drawn by the Father to Christ before they will believe in Christ. That's the entire point and where my questions come from.

Why must these Believing Jews be first drawn by the Father before coming to Christ? Why is it not enough that on their own, as Believing Jews that they recognize the Truth of what Jesus is preaching? Why must they first be drawn by the Father? That's what you seem incapable of addressing.

Got it. But again, the problem is that they must be drawn by the Father before coming to Christ. I can't seem to understand why this drawing by the Father must happen in order for them to come to Christ.

Correct, and then after that, they need to be drawn by the Father also before coming to Jesus. And that's where all my questions come from, yet you still seem to ignore them or just talk about other stuff.

I already explained it. The word “draw” does not mean a lack of free will. I believe it is an inclination, or a nudge, or slight push. Before the cross: The Jew who has HEARD and LEARNED OF THE FATHER is the one who is nudged, slightly pushed towards being able to come to Christ. Without this HEARING AND LEARNING OF THE FATHER, they are not capable of being nudged or pushed towards Christ. This drawing does not suggest an absence of free will. For they placed themselves to know GOD by hearing and learning of the Father (undoubtly of their own free will choice). Why would God take away their free will by forcing them to come to Christ after knowing God? It makes no sense. You keep implying the Calvinistic interpretation on John 6:44 and yet you deny their terms.

 

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The point of John 6:44-45 is that the Jews heart was not right with GOD. If their heart was right with GOD by their repenting or seeking forgiveness over their sins (i.e. They heard and learned of the Father), then they would be able to see clearly enough to come to Jesus Christ. For God illuminates or inclines the heart towards those who love God. If a Jew has not surrendered to GOD, then they are not capable of coming to the Son because Jesus is God and He is one with the Father. This does not mean that one does not have free will to choose God. Jesus is trying to tell them that they cannot come to Him on their own terms, but on God's terms.

 

[SPF]

Again, this does not actually answer the question I'm asking. I'll try asking it another way one last time, but this is rapidly becoming pointless.

The word “draw” does not mean a lack of free will. I believe it is an inclination, or a nudge, or slight push.

I agree, so let's go with that.

The Jew who has HEARD and LEARNED OF THE FATHER is the one who is nudged, slightly pushed towards being able to come to Christ.

Got it, so let's go with that. Now here's the question: Why must the Jew who has heard and learned of the Father be drawn to Christ in order to Believe?"

That's the question. The order seems to be this:
1. Jew hears and is learned of the Father.
2. The Father draws the Jew to Christ.
3. The Jew comes to Christ.

So again, my question is pretty straight forward - Why must the Father draw the Jew to Christ in order for them to believe? The implication is that if the Father does not draw the Jew to Christ then they won't believe. So why is there a need for the drawing? Why can't the Jew, out of their own free will, without a drawing, without a nudge, without a slight push - come to Christ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, this does not actually answer the question I'm asking. I'll try asking it another way one last time, but this is rapidly becoming pointless.

I agree, so let's go with that.

Got it, so let's go with that. Now here's the question: Why must the Jew who has heard and learned of the Father be drawn to Christ in order to Believe?"

That's the question. The order seems to be this:
1. Jew hears and is learned of the Father.
2. The Father draws the Jew to Christ.
3. The Jew comes to Christ.

So again, my question is pretty straight forward - Why must the Father draw the Jew to Christ in order for them to believe? The implication is that if the Father does not draw the Jew to Christ then they won't believe. So why is there a need for the drawing? Why can't the Jew, out of their own free will, without a drawing, without a nudge, without a slight push - come to Christ?

Those who are saved and in God's favor and playing ball on God's terms will be able to come to Jesus. The Jews that Jesus was referring to were not playing ball on God's terms according to His Word. Those who have this nudge or slight push are able to have it because they previously exercised their own free will in choosing God beforehand. So why is there is a need for this slight nudge or push to come to Christ? Again, this slight push or nudge does not negate their free will in recognizing the Messiah. Jesus is saying to the Jews that they cannot come to God on their own terms, but on God's terms. God will illuminate their eyes to see if they submit to God's ways according to His Word. For example: An unbeliever is not capable of understanding the spiritual things of God in His Word like a true and faithful follower of Jesus Christ. For the natural man does not accept the things of God. God can open our eyes to the truth once we accept God. The drawing is simply a part of the deal in abiding with God. God leads us to the truth if we abide in Him. Without God, we cannot be lead into any kind of spiritual truth, let alone recognize the Messiah. But faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith does not come by God zapping us to believe as the Calvinists claim. Perhaps you take the word “draw” as “enable” instead of “drag.” But just because God has enabled us to see the truth does not mean we cannot act contrary to the truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, this does not actually answer the question I'm asking. I'll try asking it another way one last time, but this is rapidly becoming pointless.

I agree, so let's go with that.

Got it, so let's go with that. Now here's the question: Why must the Jew who has heard and learned of the Father be drawn to Christ in order to Believe?"

That's the question. The order seems to be this:
1. Jew hears and is learned of the Father.
2. The Father draws the Jew to Christ.
3. The Jew comes to Christ.

So again, my question is pretty straight forward - Why must the Father draw the Jew to Christ in order for them to believe? The implication is that if the Father does not draw the Jew to Christ then they won't believe. So why is there a need for the drawing? Why can't the Jew, out of their own free will, without a drawing, without a nudge, without a slight push - come to Christ?

Cornelius (A Gentile). What happened with him? He heard and learned of the Father. Peter came to his house and he preached the gospel to him. Cornelius was open to the truth about Jesus because of his relationship with God the Father. Those who do not know God and are not willing to come to God on his own terms but on their own terms, are not able to truly come to Jesus. That is what John 6:44-45 is saying. For there are people out there who accepted a false Christ or Jesus. This is because they are not playing ball on God's terms according to His Word (the Bible). They are refusing to hear and learn of the Father's words. God makes it possible for a believer under the Old Covenant system who walks with GOD to know Jesus. For they are One and the same GOD. For there is one GOD (i.e. the Trinity).

 

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@SPF

Does not God the Father abide by the promises of His Word?
If a man acts upon hearing the words of the Bible, then He is hearing and learning of God the Father by the Holy Bible in what it says (For Jesus spoke the words of the Father). Thus, this man will be able to come to Jesus by heeding God's Word. Granted, Jesus now draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32).

Now, of course the Calvinist will claim that the word “all” does not mean “all” in John 12:32. But the word “draw” does not mean a person will automatically believe as a result of this drawing in John 12:32 because that would mean every person on the planet would be a believer in Jesus Christ. But God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Anyways, the point here is that Jesus draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32), but that does not mean that all of these men will believe in Jesus.

 

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Jesus spoke and did everything the Father told Him to do. So when Jesus spoke, it was the words of the Father. So if folks heard and learned of the Father's words that Jesus spoke, they were then capable of coming to Jesus.

For Jesus says in John 12:49,
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak”

The Jews were perfectly capable of hearing and learning the Father's words by the mouth of Jesus Christ Himself, but they did not want to hear such words. Thus they could not abide with God and His illumination, and thus as a result: They were unable to come to Jesus because they were not willing to play ball on God's terms.

 

[SPF]

Those who are saved and in God's favor and playing ball on God's terms will be able to come to Jesus.

Great, but that doesn't address my questions.

The Jews that Jesus was referring to were not playing ball on God's terms according to His Word.

Great, those aren't the ones my questions are based on.

Those who have this nudge or slight push are able to have it because they previously exercised their own free will in choosing God beforehand.

Yet, before they can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?

So why is there is a need for this slight nudge or push to come to Christ?

Oh my, are you actually going to answer the question?

Again, this slight push or nudge does not negate their free will in recognizing the Messiah.

Doesn't look like you're going to answer the question... I agree that free will is not negated.

Jesus is saying to the Jews that they cannot come to God on their own terms, but on God's terms.

Is this another way of saying they can't come to Christ without being drawn by the Father? If not, I'm not sure what you're saying, though I do note it doesn't address the questions I've asked.

God will illuminate their eyes to see if they submit to God's ways according to His Word.

So the illumination comes after submitting to God's ways? So they submit without knowing why they're submitting? Anyway, sounds like a rabbit trail as this also doesn't address my questions.

God can open our eyes to the truth once we accept God.

So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.

God leads us to the truth if we abide in Him.

Well, certainly part of the process of sanctification, which is becoming more like Christ will result in learning more about our Creator. But that of course is another topic and.... once again... doesn't address the questions I'm asking.

So yea... it looks like you made 3 additional posts after this one, all of which don't go anywhere near the questions I asked and again are you just pontificating on the subject.

Well it can't be said I didn't try. But for some reason, you don't want to address the question with a direct response. Not sure why, but that's your prerogative. Peace out champ.

 

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Great, but that doesn't address my questions.

Great, those aren't the ones my questions are based on.

Yet, before they can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?

Oh my, are you actually going to answer the question?

Doesn't look like you're going to answer the question... I agree that free will is not negated.

Is this another way of saying they can't come to Christ without being drawn by the Father? If not, I'm not sure what you're saying, though I do note it doesn't address the questions I've asked.

So the illumination comes after submitting to God's ways? So they submit without knowing why they're submitting? Anyway, sounds like a rabbit trail as this also doesn't address my questions.

So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.

Well, certainly part of the process of sanctification, which is becoming more like Christ will result in learning more about our Creator. But that of course is another topic and.... once again... doesn't address the questions I'm asking.

So yea... it looks like you made 3 additional posts after this one, all of which don't go anywhere near the questions I asked and again are you just pontificating on the subject.

Well it can't be said I didn't try. But for some reason, you don't want to address the question with a direct response. Not sure why, but that's your prerogative. Peace out champ.

I did answer your main question. Either...

(a) You did not like the answer, or
(b) You are incapable of understanding what I said with God's Word.

Again, the reason why a person cannot have any nudge by God to come to Jesus is because they are not hearing God's Word. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). How did you hear about Jesus? It was from hearing the words from the Bible, right? Did you know that Jesus spoke as a part of what God the Father commanded Him to say? Do you think the Jews who resisted Jesus were obeying the words of Jesus? No. They surely were not doing that. If they did do that, they would be hearing and learning of the Father if they listened to the words of Jesus (Which in essence were the words of God the Father). So this means that the Jews were unable to come to Jesus on their own terms or their own way outside of hearing and learning God the Father's words.

Obeying God does illuminate our path to know God and His good ways. But the Jews who rejected Jesus were unable to come to Jesus because they did not obey God's words. Ever read John 8 lately?

Jesus says in John 8:47, “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

In other words, God gives illumination to the truth or drawings to those who obey God's Word. For when you believed and acted upon the gospel message from hearing the words from the Bible (i.e. hearing God the Father's words), did you not receive an illumination of the truth that Jesus saves? You must have if you believe Jesus saves. Do you believe in obeying God's words plays a part in understanding His words? This is what I believe is at the heart of the answer you seek from me in your question involving John 6:44.

 

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Great, but that doesn't address my questions.

Great, those aren't the ones my questions are based on.

Yet, before they can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?

Oh my, are you actually going to answer the question?

Doesn't look like you're going to answer the question... I agree that free will is not negated.

Is this another way of saying they can't come to Christ without being drawn by the Father? If not, I'm not sure what you're saying, though I do note it doesn't address the questions I've asked.

So the illumination comes after submitting to God's ways? So they submit without knowing why they're submitting? Anyway, sounds like a rabbit trail as this also doesn't address my questions.

So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.

Well, certainly part of the process of sanctification, which is becoming more like Christ will result in learning more about our Creator. But that of course is another topic and.... once again... doesn't address the questions I'm asking.

So yea... it looks like you made 3 additional posts after this one, all of which don't go anywhere near the questions I asked and again are you just pontificating on the subject.

Well it can't be said I didn't try. But for some reason, you don't want to address the question with a direct response. Not sure why, but that's your prerogative. Peace out champ.

Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. This means to obey God's Word. We have an illumination to the truth that Jesus saves if we act upon God the Father's words in the Holy Bible. The Jews were not acting upon the words of Jesus. They were not capable of coming to God or Jesus because they refused to hear and learn of God the Father's words (Which we now have immortalized in our Holy Bible). So the key ingredient that is missing is faith. They did not have faith in all of God's Word. They did not obey God. Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So we accept God without knowing the Truth? I felt like when I accepted Christ it was because I knew the Truth. Interesting. But this also is a rabbit trail and doesn't address my questions.

You cannot know the truth without reading and believing the words in your Holy Bible in some form or another (either Scripture spoken by another person, a billboard sign or in a book in the past as some kind of planted seed), or by your hearing the words of the Holy Bible in that moment. If we believe and know the truth, it is because we are acting on some part in having faith in God's Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). You cannot believe and or know the truth without the Holy Bible, and in acting upon it in some form. You cannot be saved without exercising faith in God's Word by believing it and or acting upon it. We are able to come to Jesus by hearing the words of God the Father (Which are the spoken words of Jesus immortalized in Scripture). This is what it means to be born again of water. For when we know that we received the words of God, we received them not as the words of men, but in fact as the very words of God. The seed that we receive in our hearts is the Word. When we obey God's Word, our eyes are then opened to the truth. This truth is Jesus Christ.

 

[SPF]

I did answer your main question.

I don’t see how you did, can you copy/paste where you believe you specifically answered this:

Yet, before they[believing Jews in question] can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?

Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?

 

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I don’t see how you did, can you copy/paste where you believe you specifically answered this:

Yet, before they[believing Jews in question] can come to Christ they must first be nudged by the Father. Thus, the inverse is also true that unless the Father nudges them, they won't come to Christ. So again my question - Why must they be nudged by the Father to come to Christ?

Again let me ask - why must the Father FIRST nudge them? Why is the nudge necessary and required?

The nudge or illumination of the truth is the reward for a person acting in faith in God's Word. For Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Again, are you aware that when Jesus spoke He spoke the words of God the Father? This means that when Jesus spoke, He was teaching the words of the Father. So if a person hears and or obeys the words of Jesus, they are in essence hearing and learning of the Father. So if a person obeys the words of Jesus, they can know the truth in coming to Jesus because they are acting upon God's Words. For John 8:47 says he that is of God hears God's words. Most Christians today are for disobedience of God's Word and they say it is impossible to obey God. While I am not saying that obeying God is easy, it is possible because His Word says so. This is why many Christians do not understand what God's Word says because they stumble at God's Word.