Calvinism and Abortion

[Dave L]

Why don't you prove it by explaining the verses and by backing up your interpretation with the context for a change.

Present the verses. one at a time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My claims are as crisp and clear as the 5 points of Calvinism.

You said you believe in only 3 points and the other 2 need some work. You also did not say which of the 3 points you believe in, either. Again, .... “mystery.”

 

[Dave L]

You said you believe in only 3 points and the other 2 need some work. You also did not say which of the 3 points you believe in, either. Again, .... “mystery.”

I clearly state the first 3 points agree with scripture. The other 2 are close.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Present the verses. one at a time.

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted,” (Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

If memory serves me correctly, you said before that these folks were already saved. But you did not offer any Scriptural proof to back up that claim. All we know about repentance is dealing with salvation. Jesus said repent or perish (Luke 13:3). So this suggests that repentance is a part of salvation. So Peter was telling these people to repent in order to be saved. Peter said repent and BE CONVERTED. Peter did not say wait for God to convert you so that you can repent. That is what you would like for this text to say but it simply does not say that. You have to twist the plain reading of the Scriptures here in order to make your Theology work.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I clearly state the first 3 points agree with scripture. The other 2 are close.

You said in post #362, I quote: “I believe the first 3 points of the 5 are spot on. The other 2 need some work.”

Anyways, what are those three points you believe in?

 

[Dave L]

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted,” (Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

If memory serves me correctly, you said before that these folks were already saved. But you did not offer any Scriptural proof to back up that claim. All we know about repentance is dealing with salvation. Jesus said repent or perish (Luke 13:3). So this suggests that repentance is a part of salvation. So Peter was telling these people to repent in order to be saved. Peter said repent and BE CONVERTED. Peter did not say wait for God to convert you so that you can repent. That is what you would like for this text to say but it simply does not say that. You have to twist the plain reading of the Scriptures here in order to make your Theology work.

You do not understand what is taking place here. These were largely saved Jews still under the Old Covenant. Peter is telling them to repent from dead works of the law and embrace the New Covenant which he was preaching.

 

[Dave L]

You said in post #362, I quote: “I believe the first 3 points of the 5 are spot on. The other 2 need some work.”

Anyways, what are those three points you believe in?

If you knew about the 5 points of Calvinism (basic Christian knowledge) you would already have an answer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You do not understand what is taking place here. These were largely saved Jews still under the Old Covenant. Peter is telling them to repent from dead works of the law and embrace the New Covenant which he was preaching.

But where is the proof in Scripture of this claim? I ask you to show me proof in the Bible that these are saved Jews under the Old Covenant who were being told by Peter to repent (not as a part of salvation). Is this a part of the context? Is there a cross reference to support your claim?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you knew about the 5 points of Calvinism (basic Christian knowledge) you would already have an answer.

No. You said you believe in 3 and 2 of them need some work. I was asking you which 3 you solidly believe in.

 

[Dave L]

But where is the proof in Scripture of this claim? I ask you to show me proof in the Bible that they are saved Jews under the Old Covenant. Is this a part of the context? Is there a cross reference to support your claim?

They were believers. Also called "devout" in the opening passages.

 

[Dave L]

No. You said you believe in 3 and 2 of them need some work. I was asking you which 3 you solidly believe in.

Needing work does not say how much work they need.

 

[StillGods]

Only the born again can desire to repent. The rest love sin too much.

we all love sin. Jesus died for sinners. Jesus is a friend of sinners.
have you ever been so tormented and bound by sin ie drowning, and you get offered a way out, you will try anything to get free.
you will repent if that's what it takes you will do anything.
Jesus didnt say be Born again and repent, He said Repent and believe, humbling ourselves ie repenting is what let's God into our lives. that is open to every person that ever lived but some are too stubborn to repent. Jesus lamented over the stubborn hearts of Israel, miracles were performed and they still would not believe. you classify them as already believers but hardly any repented. by your own words if they were born again they would all have repented when Jesus said to do so as you said only the born again have the desire to repent.
no my brother sinners can indeed repent, and do so every day Praise God. It is sinners that need to repent not already saved people.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Born in sin:

1. Psalms 51:5 - “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
   
   
2. Psalms 58:3 - “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”
   
   
3. Job 14:4 - “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.”

Romans 5:18 says,

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”​

Also, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Babies are not created to not die. Babies die because they have been tainted by the sin of Adam.

In addition, there is the imputation of Christ's sacrifice, as well. When we seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and we believe that He died for our sins, He was buried, and was risen three days later on our behalf, the redemption of Christ is applied to our lives in that moment. Our continuing in the faith like walking in the light (i.e. loving our brother) is a part of Christ's blood cleansing us of all sin, as well (1 John 1:7 cf. 1 John 2:9-11). This is important to understand to understand because if we gain righteousness via by Christ, then we gain sin by Adam.

I already addressed Psalms 51:5. David was saying that he was conceived in sin meaning his parents were sinners at the time of his conception. I don’t see how a sperm cell and an embryo are capable of sin. You’ll have to explain that to me because I can’t even fathom the concept of it.

Psalms 58:3 says the wicked are estranged (gone away, a stranger or foreigner) from the womb.

Yes I can’t imagine an unborn child being capable of knowing God yet unless God has first made Himself known to the child although I think John the Baptist may be an exception in his case seeing how he seemed to acknowledge Christ while still in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary came to visit her. Definitely an interesting situation there. Notice in Psalms 58:3 he said they go astray as soon as they are born. He doesn’t say they have gone astray before they are born. Now I wouldn’t say they are born telling lies as soon as they exit the womb. What child says anything as soon as they exit the womb. I think that just an exaggeration or a figure of speech. Exaggerations and even sarcasm are evident in the scriptures several times brother.


“The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:31-32‬ ‭NASB

Romans 5:18 Because of Adam’s offense judgement came upon all man. Judgement for what exactly? Their deeds or Adam’s deeds? Do the scriptures say each man will be judged according to Adam’s deeds or do they say each man will be judged according to his deeds? I know you know the answer to this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They were believers. Also called "devout" in the opening passages.

A person can be a devout in a false religion and be unsaved. A Jew can be devout in what they beleive and be unsaved. So that's not proof that they are saved. You need something more substantial here. Something like.... “And the souls of those Jews who abided in Christ needed to be told to repent by Peter and be converted.” But even this is a contradiction in your belief system. For conversion according to you happens BEFORE repentance. See, that is why what you believe is silly. You are simply not reading and believing this text.

 

[Dave L]

A person can be a devout in a false religion and be unsaved. A Jew can be devout in what they beleive and be unsaved. So that's not proof that they are saved. You need something more substantial here. Something like.... “And the souls of those Jews who abided in Christ needed to be told to repent by Peter and be converted.” But even this is a contradiction in your belief system. For conversion according to you happens BEFORE repentance. See, that is why what you believe is silly. You are simply not reading and believing this text.

They believed (were saved) or they would not have sought answers and obeyed Peter.

 

[Isilwen]

If you knew about the 5 points of Calvinism (basic Christian knowledge) you would already have an answer.

More and more you have proven to me that I made the right choice to reject Calvinism!

Thank you for that!!

 

[mlepfitjw]

This may be slightly derailing the current derailed conversation, but if anyone would mind humoring me, I would appreciate it.

I've heard the above statement a fair amount throughout my Christian life.

But, how reliable of a statement is it? I mean, one would certainly hope it's true. One would certainly hope the Holy Spirit is actively guiding us, instructing us, keeping us from false beliefs. But it's hard to see that statement as an actual representation of reality.

First, I can use myself as an example as I'm sure all of you can use yourselves as an example. I've been a Christian for many decades. While my core beliefs haven't changed, my secondary beliefs certainly have. But if the Holy Spirit is always to remind us of what is right, why have my beliefs changed?

And what of my beliefs that have changed maybe 2 or 3 times on a topic? And what of my beliefs as they are right now? I love the Lord. I have an active relationship with Christ. I actively read Scripture, meditate, and disciple others. I have accountability partners. I'm involved in Church. I lead my family. I don't have any habitual sin in my life. Am I to assume that all my beliefs as they stand today are correct? That seems arrogant to think, doesn't it?

What if someone on this forum changes my mind about something theologically, does that mean that the Holy Spirit wasn't previously guiding me on that subject?

And just look at the Titans of our faith. Just take two of your theological hero's of faith. Even if they are similar on 95% of what they believed, I'm sure we could find something they disagree on. We don't even need to look at a Baptist vs a Presbyterian, we can look at a Baptist and a Baptist to fine nuanced disagreements. And yet they would be people we consider truly godly men.

Put 4 humble, godly men in a room together and you might find 4 different opinions about something theological - and all 4 men will tell you they've prayed and sought the Lord.

So in reality, where is the Holy Spirit in guiding?

Your synapsis is a very good case. Holy Spirit is there because of belief and faith. It reminds us of the good of the Lord Yeshua, and God by reminding us when we do wrong by our neighbors or not being loving towards God. It reminds us of scripture we have read and allows strength over our flesh if we build on the spirit. Though we will never be perfect, or will be in our flesh we can be mature by the spirit with our faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already addressed Psalms 51:5. David was saying that he was conceived in sin meaning his parents were sinners at the time of his conception. I don’t see how a sperm cell and an embryo are capable of sin. You’ll have to explain that to me because I can’t even fathom the concept of it.

David is pouring out his soul and seeking forgiveness with the Lord. Why would he bring up the sin of his mother if it has nothing to do with the current sins he was seeking forgiveness over?

Psalms 58:3 says the wicked are estranged (gone away, a stranger or foreigner) from the womb.

Yes I can’t imagine an unborn child being capable of knowing God yet unless God has first made Himself known to the child although I think John the Baptist may be an exception in his case seeing how he seemed to acknowledge Christ while still in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary came to visit her. Definitely an interesting situation there. Notice in Psalms 58:3 he said they go astray as soon as they are born. He doesn’t say they have gone astray before they are born. Now I wouldn’t say they are born telling lies as soon as they exit the womb. What child says anything as soon as they exit the womb. I think that just an exaggeration or a figure of speech. Exaggerations and even sarcasm are evident in the scriptures several times brother.

I believe Psalms 58:3 is using an exaggeration on the lack of the mention on time between when a baby is born and their growing up to be able to lie. The issue is the source. Your saying the baby is innocent and yet the by product of that innocent baby always turns out to be evil. Jesus says a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit and neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.

As for John the Baptist having the Spirit since birth: This does not mean the body is not tainted or condemned to sin. Did John live forever? No. The wages of sin is still death. If John was 100% innocent at birth, then he technically should not have done anything that deserved death for him.

“The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:31-32‬ ‭NASB

Romans 5:18 Because of Adam’s offense judgement came upon all man. Judgement for what exactly? Their deeds or Adam’s deeds? Do the scriptures say each man will be judged according to Adam’s deeds or do they say each man will be judged according to his deeds? I know you know the answer to this.

God alone judges inherited sin via by Adam and men cannot judge inherited sin. So the situation with Jesus here does not apply. All men die because of what Adam did.

 

[SPF]

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Does the Father draw all people at some point in their life? And what about before the Father draws a person, are they able on their own, contrary to this verse, to come to Christ?

 

[Dave L]

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Does the Father draw all people at some point in their life? And what about before the Father draws a person, are they able on their own, contrary to this verse, to come to Christ?

If you come to Christ it's because the Father draws you. You wouldn't consider it otherwise.
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)