Calvin quote

[redleghunter]

Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine, who was most known for using the pagan, Greek philosophy of Plato and Aristotle to interpret the Bible. This is false in my opinion.

Can you substantiate this claim?

 

[zoidar]

Which means God learned.

Well that statement above is Open Theism.

Which means God waited for Bob to make his “decision”

Hi there Redleg!

I am not comfortable with the idea that someone is doomed from the womb. I don't think that is true.

1. I'm also against the idea that God didn't know everything from the beginning of time or that God learns.

2. God doesn't have to wait for Bob to make his decision, because God knows before Bob has decided. So God has not learned. That's for certain.

I think this question goes into the category, we can't know. It's a mystery how it's both 1 and 2. That's what I see in the Bible: Everyone can be saved, yet God knows who and whom.

God knows everything yet God doesn't handle us from this knowing, but from the present moment. Like God chose Saul to get rid of the Philistines, knowing that Saul would fail. If God had handled Saul from his foreknowledge He wouldn't have chosen Saul to begin with. Sorry, a bit OT.

 

[Hammster]

Calvin was heavily influenced by Augustine, who was most known for using the pagan, Greek philosophy of Plato and Aristotle to interpret the Bible. This is false in my opinion.

This would fall under genetic fallacy.

 

[Hammster]

Ah, but the question then is what does he do? He doesn't condemn people to destruction. They do that to themselves. I would not agree with the quote for several reasons. We don't know how God planned the creation. There's too much speculation involved. We only have our theories.

Their actions are sinful. He’s the judge. He does the condemning.

 

[solid_core]

No. Our nature apart from regeneration will act sinfully in any given situation. I guess we could say it’s what makes us tick. So in the flesh, it’s sin. We have no desire to please God or glorify God. With our new nature, we do have the desire to please God and glorify God.

So, our nature is making us being unable to please God? Like fish are unable to please somebody who likes flying instead of swimming?

Is our nature a "mathematical", "logical" impossibility to be good? Is it absolute necessity? Or is it just probability? You are not writing clearly.

 

[Hammster]

So, our nature is making us unable to please God? Like fish are unable to please somebody who likes flying instead of swimming?

Is our nature a "mathematical", "logical" impossibility to be good? Is it absolute necessity? You are not writing clearly.

Let me just give you some Bible.


For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:5-8

 

[solid_core]

Let me just give you some Bible.


For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:5-8

Thanks, but you know that its not an answer to my question if the inability to please God is absolute or not.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks, but you know that its not an answer to my question if the inability to please God is absolute or not.

Those in the flesh cannot please God. That seems pretty clear.

There’s also this:


And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
— Hebrews 11:6

 

[Neogaia777]

For this faith does not come from or is because of yourselves, but it is a gift (pre-planned/thought out/given to you more fortunate ones) by His (God's) choosing and His choosing only alone, etc...

This whole God the Father predestining, pre-planning, pre-choosing some to go to a hell, or what might be or seem from heaven to be a very hellish existence, depends on what you think hell is actually, and the perspective from heaven as well, also, etc...

It would seem wrong of God, if they did not somehow choose it or send themselves there, until you understand, well, what hell is from heavens perspective, and also how it is more of "this" here and nothing more, etc, and is forever and never going beyond it ever, etc, and from heavens perspective that is eternal separation from God, and is an eternal burning fire, eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc, or is hell, or is a very hellish existence, etc, eternal sorrow, misery, pain and suffering, etc, it is like something out of the twilight zone, etc, cause that is more what it actually is, or is more what it is actually like, etc, exactly like something out of the twilight zone, etc, and it is forever, etc...

Did they send themselves there...? Technically, no they did not, they just were not ever meant for heaven or a heavenly type or kind of life or existence in the first place, etc...

Or let me put it another way, if we know with 100% absolute certainty that we do not send ourselves to heaven, then how can some send themselves to hell...?

They don't, either one... All is predestined and all is predetermined by God the Father from the very beginning (to it's ending(s) and everything in between, big or small, etc)...

They only have a purpose here and in these types of existences only, etc, and they are temporary yet eternal at the same time, as other creations are born, die and are remade, etc, they are only meant for that and that only, for eternity...

Their purpose is only here, etc, and beyond that they have nor serve, nor ever have had, nor were ever meant to or for, any kind of higher purpose or higher existence beyond that/this ever, forever, etc...

Some would say they were never even truly alive or living to begin with, like I said "twilight zone" stuff...

God Bless!

Oh and, P.S., I posted a few other things here (below) if anyone wants to check them out...?

Beginning with this one and the ones following...

God's Decree

God Bless!

 

[solid_core]

Those in the flesh cannot please God. That seems pretty clear.

There’s also this:


And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
— Hebrews 11:6

Is it necessary for humans to be "in the flesh" or do they have a choice?

Is it technically impossible for humans to have faith like it is impossible for fish to fly over mountains?

 

[Hammster]

Is it necessary for humans to be "in the flesh" or do they have a choice?

Is it technically impossible for humans to have faith like it is impossible for fish to fly over mountains?

Are you not understanding the scripture? Or do you have a different understanding?

 

[solid_core]

Are you not understanding the scripture? Or do you have a different understanding?

I am not understanding your views, because you do not try to answer my questions.

You are a calvinist, so look at Calvin and his Instititions. He did not just quote verses, he explained them. This is what I want - your explanations.

 

[Hammster]

I am not understanding your views, because you do not try to answer my questions.

You are a calvinist, so look at Calvin and his Instititions. He did not just quote verses, he explained them. This is what I want - your explanations.

Okay. Those who are not regenerate, those who are lost, those who are enemies of God, goats, those in the flesh, etc. cannot please God.

 

[solid_core]

Okay. Those who are not regenerate, those who are lost, those who are enemies of God, goats, those in the flesh, etc. cannot please God.

When you say "cannot", do you mean absolute inability like "a triangle cannot have more than 3 angles"

Or just a rhetorical inability like to say "Bob is a liar, so I cannot trust him"?

 

[Hammster]

When you say "cannot", do you mean absolute inability like "a triangle cannot have more than 3 angles"

Or just a rhetorical inability like to say "Bob is a liar, so I cannot trust him"?

I’m not saying it. Scripture is saying it.


and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:8

 

[solid_core]

I’m not saying it. Scripture is saying it.


and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:8

Whatever, so, if you need it rephrased:

When Scripture says "cannot", does it mean absolute inability like "a triangle cannot have more than 3 angles"

Or just a rhetorical inability like to say "Bob is a liar, so I cannot trust him"?

 

[Hammster]

Whatever, so, if you need it rephrased:

When Scripture says "cannot", does it mean absolute inability like "a triangle cannot have more than 3 angles"

Or just a rhetorical inability like to say "Bob is a liar, so I cannot trust him"?

Whatever? You act as if scripture just gets in the way.

But okay. It means that whatever you do, even if it’s the nicest thing you can think of, it won’t be pleasing to God.

 

[solid_core]

Whatever? You act as if scripture just gets in the way.

But okay. It means that whatever you do, even if it’s the nicest thing you can think of, it won’t be pleasing to God.

Do you understand my question about what kind of inability or impossibility we are talking about? Do you want some more analogies?

Just say if its absolute, logical impossiblity or just weaker impossibility, like predictible, but there is still a technical way to do it.

 

[Hammster]

Do you understand my question about what kind of inability or impossibility we are talking about? Do you want some more analogies?

Just say if its absolute, logical impossiblity or just weaker impossibility, like predictible, but there is still a technical way to do it.

I’ve given you the answer. Pick the best thing you think you can do, and it won’t be pleasing to God if you aren’t saved.

Perhaps an example will help. I, as a believer, help an old lady across the street because I consider others better than myself, and I want to please my Father. That brings Him glory, and that pleases Him.

Neighbor Bob, and unbeliever, helps an old lady across the street. He does it because it’s a nice thing to do.

God is only pleased with one of us.

 

[solid_core]

I’ve given you the answer. Pick the best thing you think you can do, and it won’t be pleasing to God if you aren’t saved.

Perhaps an example will help. I, as a believer, help an old lady across the street because I consider others better than myself, and I want to please my Father. That brings Him glory, and that pleases Him.

Neighbor Bob, and unbeliever, helps an old lady across the street. He does it because it’s a nice thing to do.

God is only pleased with one of us.

So you are pleasing God no matter what you do and an unbeliever is not pleasing God, no matter what he does.

So, where is justice?