Calvin quote

[Hammster]

By what criteria do or can you judge or determine that, etc...?

How can you tell...? And how can, or do you not condemn or judge your own self in the doing so, etc...?

Who are you calling the believer, or otherwise the unbeliever, etc...?

And what is you basis/reason/motivations/purpose(s) in doing so and/or judging or determining so, etc, and are they "sin", etc...?

And does that exclude you if they are or were sin, etc, etc, etc, so on and so forth, etc...?

Or how does it exclude one if they were sin, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

I’ve explained. I can’t make you get it.

 

[solid_core]

I gave you an example of what I mean when I say we cannot please in the flesh. What exactly didn’t you understand?

You are unwilling to define what does "cannot" mean.

If its:

a) absolute inability and therefore no individual responsibility and therefore no justice in their punishment

b) relative inability like habits and no good will and therefore individual responsibility and therefore justice in their punishment.

 

[Hammster]

You are unwilling to define what does "cannot" mean.

If its:

a) absolute inability and therefore no individual responsibility and therefore no justice in their punishment

b) relative inability like habits and no good will and therefore individual responsibility and therefore justice in their punishment.

I have explained it. I’m just not using your definitions. But let me try one more time.

There’s a young man who is smitten with a young lady. He writes her poetry. He sends her flowers. He serenades her. She’s not interested in him, though. So no matter what he does, he cannot please her.

 

[Hammster]

You are unwilling to define what does "cannot" mean.

If its:

a) absolute inability and therefore no individual responsibility and therefore no justice in their punishment

b) relative inability like habits and no good will and therefore individual responsibility and therefore justice in their punishment.

What do you think Paul means in Romans 8:8?


and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:8

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, he denied original sin and believed that man could do good apart from any work of God in him.

That’s not why Pelagian was labeled as a heretic, he was labeled a heretic for teaching that man can live a sinless life and can earn his own salvation apart from Christ’s atonement. Iranaeus said God made man with the ability to do both good and evil. Man can choose to cooperate or choose not to.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

My statement said nothing about man being able to do good on his own. God has bestowed the knowledge of both good and evil, and the ability to repent to all men which is why every person is held accountable for their disobedience and can be justly punished for it.

That’s what I’ve been saying brother. Because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart they are storing up the righteous wrath of God. They have the ability to repent and God will grant them grace if they repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which means God learned.

God foreseeing what someone will do is not Him learning. The book of life was written before creation which means that God created everyone already knowing what they would choose to do of their own free will. He didn’t create them then look forward to see what they will do otherwise the book of life couldn’t have been written before creation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where does repentance come from?

God has created everyone with the ability to repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then why did you answer a question not for you?

because this is an open discussion in a public forum?

 

[BNR32FAN]

If it’s not pleasing to God, it’s not good.

Helping those in need is still good even if it’s not pleasing in God’s sight because of this sin still attached to the person who is helping. Does it not still benefit the ones in need?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, he denied original sin and believed that man could do good apart from any work of God in him.

And as I stated it’s synergetic, meaning it’s the result of acting in cooperation with God which is not pelagianism.

 

[Hammster]

God has created everyone with the ability to repent.

But not the desire. Man cannot please God in the flesh.

 

[Hammster]

Helping those in need is still good even if it’s not pleasing in God’s sight because of this sin still attached to the person who is helping. Does it not still benefit the ones in need?

Of course it does. But that doesn’t make it pleasing to God because it’s not for His glory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why is sin irrelevant if we are to repent?

Because everyone has sinned. The determining factor for receiving salvation is repentance (turning towards God and away from sin). A person trying to refrain from sin will fail regardless of whether they are a believer or not but only the believer will receive Christ’s atonement. So the determining factor is repentance.

 

[Hammster]

Because everyone has sinned. The determining factor for receiving salvation is repentance (turning towards God and away from sin). A person trying to refrain from sin will fail regardless of whether they are a believer or not but only the believer will receive Christ’s atonement. So the determining factor is repentance.

Actually, we are made righteous by faith.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But not the desire. Man cannot please God in the flesh.

That doesn’t mean man can’t do good. I already said man can’t please God without Christ’s atonement because he is still stained with sin.

 

[Hammster]

That doesn’t mean man can’t do good. I already said man can’t please God without Christ’s atonement because he is still stained with sin.

But we are talking about pleasing God. So if it’s not pleasing God, then it’s pointless as far as salvation is concerned. And a reprobate can do more good works then a believer, but he will still be rejected at judgment.

 

[lsume]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

Please consider that since God doesn’t want any to parish but that all should come to Christ for salvation. Since His Will is absolute, it’s hard for me to see any human in eternal hell. However that being said, He certainly might use hell to plumb up some. I was suspended over the lake of fire in a powerful vision shortly after Christ came to me as a thief in the night. That was not the most terrifying experience I’ve had but it was a very valuable experience i had about 30 years ago. From there many things have happened.

 

[renniks]

Their actions are sinful. He’s the judge. He does the condemning.

But, in Calvin's doctrine, they are only sinful because he engineered the fall of man.
So, it's kind of like condemning them when they can't do otherwise. No, that's exactly what it's like.

 

[Hammster]

But, in Calvin's doctrine, they are only sinful because he engineered the fall of man.
So, it's kind of like condemning them when they can't do otherwise. No, that's exactly what it's like.

It’s condemning them for sin. God owes nobody salvation.

 

[bcbsr]

“he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”

Calvin’s Institutes, Book 3 Chapter 23 paragraph 6.

Assuming that the doctrine of Open Theism is false (which we must do in this forum), is this a true or false statement, and why?

That's the double predestination concept of Calvinism. This in contrast to the single predestination concept of Lutherans, namely the election of those who will be saved. Though both Calvinists and Lutherans believe election occurs from birth and such election is not contingent upon God's foreknowledge of the person's faith or performance in the future. And this in contrast to many, such as myself, who today believe in the election solely of believers. That is the rhetoric the Bible uses concerning predestination, such as in Romans 8, is applied solely to believers, the theme being the eternal security of those who have put their faith in Christ. Spurious references to the election prior to faith is based upon God foreknowing their future faith, or it's referring to a different "election", such as the election of Jews to show how bad people can be under the theocracy of the Mosaic Law.

For a detailed study see
Election & Predestination
Problems with Calvinism