Cain and Calvinism

[FutureAndAHope]

Everybody knows Cain did not inherit eternal life.

1Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.


Calvinist thinking incorrectly states, that Cain never had any hope that he was predestined for destruction, that God choose Him for destruction, but what did God say in scripture? We know God is not a liar.


Gen 4:5-7 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."


God told Cain he had a choice, that if he did well he would be accepted. Cain had a chance at life. As do all people, all people are given a chance at life.


This choice is all throughout scripture.


Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.


John 3:15-17 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

 

[Jonaitis]

Cain made the choices that confirmed his predetermined end.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Everybody knows Cain did not inherit eternal life.

1Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.


Calvinist thinking incorrectly states, that Cain never had any hope that he was predestined for destruction, that God choose Him for destruction, but what did God say in scripture? We know God is not a liar.


Gen 4:5-7 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."


God told Cain he had a choice, that if he did well he would be accepted. Cain had a change of life. As do all people, all people are given a chance at life.


This choice is all throughout scripture.


Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.


John 3:15-17 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

I don't see how this disproves reformed thought. Cain did not have the chance of salvation God cursed him for slaughtering Abel. There's nothing in reformed thinking that says that people are not responsible for their actions and arent expected by God to believe. I mean, when God shut the door on the arc did those people have a chance at salvation? No. They chose sin and cursed themselves. When God hardened Pharoahs heart several times did that make God evil? Of course not.

I suggest before trying to disprove something you clearly don't understand to actually do homework on historic Protestant theology.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Cain made the choices that confirmed his predetermined end.

Is God a lier? He told cain:

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

• He said, Cain "could" be accepted if he did well. God is not a liar.
• He said Cain could rule his sin.

 

[Jonaitis]

Is God a lier? He told cain:

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

• He said, Cain "could" be accepted if he did well. God is not a liar.
• He said Cain could rule his sin.

God is not a liar, Cain could be accepted if he did well.

However, if we compare it with other Scriptures, like Romans 9, God already knew his response.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I don't see how this disproves reformed thought. Cain did not have the chance of salvation God cursed him for slaughtering Abel. There's nothing in reformed thinking that says that people are not responsible for their actions and arent expected by God to believe. I mean, when God shut the door on the arc did those people have a chance at salvation? No. They chose sin and cursed themselves. When God hardened Pharoahs heart several times did that make God evil? Of course not.

I suggest before trying to disprove something you clearly don't understand to actually do homework on historic Protestant theology.

The passage I quoted was "before" Cain killed Abel. God cursed Cain for his actions not forced him to sin. It 100% discredits Reformed Theology, for God told Cain "If you do well will you not be accepted", and "he could rule over his sin".

As for Pharoah, look closely at the scripture.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

It shows that God, has endured with longsuffering Pharoah, "before", his heart was hardened.

God always shows himself, giving the person a chance before hardening a heart. See the following verses regarding receiving the Holy Spirit, God only uses a vessel for dishonor if they persist in sin.

Joh 14:20-24 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

See the order here is very important, Obedience leads to God's manifestation.

The hardness of the heart only comes with the rejection of God's commands.

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.


Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God is not a liar, Cain could be accepted if he did well.

However, if we compare it with other Scriptures, like Romans 9, God already knew his response.

Romans can be interpreted in a different way. You can't change the plain as your face meaning of Genisis to put your interpretation of Romans.

God has given man free will. As we see here:

Gen 6:5-8 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

The LORD can not be sorry for something he intimately planned.

The Earliest Church Fathers fought the fatalists view of God, standing strongly on the side of Free will.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I suggest before trying to disprove something you clearly don't understand to actually do homework on historic Protestant theology.

Do you realize how lacking logic, it is to say that God says "You can do something", when really He means, "I have not given you the ability", God does not have a split personality?

What the Earliest Chruch Father believed, free will makes much more sense.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

 

[Clare73]

Everybody knows Cain did not inherit eternal life.

Everyone is born condemned by Adam's sin (Ro 5:18), by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

Cain was condemned long before he killed his brother.

Only those born again by faith in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ, Ge 15:5) inherit eternal life.

1Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.


Calvinist thinking incorrectly states, that Cain never had any hope that he was predestined for destruction, that God choose Him for destruction, but what did God say in scripture? We know God is not a liar.


Gen 4:5-7 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."


God told Cain he had a choice, that if he did well he would be accepted. Cain had a change of life. As do all people, all people are given a chance at life.


This choice is all throughout scripture.


Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.


John 3:15-17 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

 

[Clare73]

Is God a lier? He told cain:

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

He said, Cain "could" be accepted if he did well. God is not a liar.
He said Cain could rule his sin.

But Cain preferred sin over God and, therefore, chose not to do so.

His choice condemned him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Everyone is born condemned by Adam's sin (Ro 5:18), by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

Cain was condemned long before he killed his brother.

Only those born again by faith in the Promise (Seed, Jesus Christ, Ge 15:5) inherit eternal life.

This is a blight on God's nature. God does not plan, or create man, with no hope. He tells Cain plainly two things, and God does not lie. "You will be accepted if you do good", and "you can fight against your sin".

 

[Mark Quayle]

• He said, Cain "could" be accepted if he did well. God is not a liar.
• He said Cain could rule his sin.

No, actually he didn't say either one of those things. Look at your own quote: "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." I'm glad you aren't on anyone's Bible translation team.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No, actually he didn't say either one of those things. Look at your own quote: "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." I'm glad you aren't on anyone's Bible translation team.

You think "I" have mistranslated, what "is" it saying??????

But so you know my translation, let's break up the scripture:

If you do well, will you not be accepted?

Firstly the scripture says "IF", if is a choice. It is one of two things, one of two pathways. If what? "you do well", what does "do well" mean, in the context of scripture, and just plain English, it means if he acts rightly, righteously, in the right way. What will happen? "he will be accepted" (in the same way as Able).


And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

What is the second part of the "IF" the negative "IF", it is if he does not act rightly, sin lies at the door, sin waits for him. The devil is waiting for him to sin, so he can take control. The devil desires him, sin pulls at him. But God said "you should rule over it", and gain mastery over it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You think "I" have mistranslated, what "is" it saying??????

But so you know my translation, let's break up the scripture:

If you do well, will you not be accepted?

Firstly the scripture says "IF", if is a choice. It is one of two things, one of two pathways. If what? "you do well", what does "do well" mean, in the context of scripture, and just plain English, it means if he acts rightly, righteously, in the right way. What will happen? "he will be accepted" (in the same way as Able).


And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

What is the second part of the "IF" the negative "IF", it is if he does not act rightly, sin lies at the door, sin waits for him. The devil is waiting for him to sin, so he can take control. The devil desires him, sin pulls at him. But God said "you should rule over it", and gain mastery over it.

What you said was,

• He said, Cain "could" be accepted if he did well. God is not a liar.
• He said Cain could rule his sin.

You should at least have said, "He said that Cain "could" be accepted...

But, anyhow, on to your claim here, and what you did mean:

You say, "if is a choice". That is debatable, but that isn't the point, really. Nobody is denying that Cain had a choice. Not even Calvinists. The question isn't whether he had a choice, but whether he would have been able to choose right. (Or we could even ignore that question and claim that God was only talking about barest morality, and not the heart.)

You say, "But God said "you should rule over it", and gain mastery over it." (I notice you didn't repeat your mistaken, "He said Cain could rule his sin.") Here, once again, you gloss right over the question sometimes couched in these terms: "The command does not imply the ability to obey." It very closely approaches the "is-ought dilemma", but I doubt you want to go there.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

"The command does not imply the ability to obey."

What God said could have been done, it is only that you have to squeeze the statement through a doctrinal sive, so you come up with an illogical statement to make it fit. Tell me what makes you so sure of your doctrine? We should all take warning from God:

James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

It is not just about preserving a tradition, it is very much, that we will be accountable for anyone we hurt with our teachings.

 

[Fervent]

"The command does not imply the ability to obey." It very closely approaches the "is-ought dilemma", but I doubt you want to go there.

Ought implies can, if Cain had no ability then there was no choice and God spoke falslely.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What God said could have been done, it is only that you have to squeeze the statement through a doctrinal sive, so you come up with an illogical statement to make it fit. Tell me what makes you so sure of your doctrine? We should all take warning from God:

James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

It is not just about preserving a tradition, it is very much, that we will be accountable for anyone we hurt with our teachings.

How is that statement illogical? Can you think of no situation where the command does not imply the ability to obey?

"God commands all men everywhere to repent". Can they? Not according to Romans 8:8, unless you think that someone repenting doesn't please God.

Of course we should all take warning from God! Do you think you will escape judgement for your every word, and for who is harmed by it, anymore than I will?

Strangely, you might find yourself disagreeing with this too, that those of us who teach are UNABLE to convey full description and weight and truth from God's word, nevermind from human reasoning. It's already obvious that we ourselves are unable to comprehend the full truth. So, it would seem the only safe thing for a teacher to do would be to read the Word and say nothing more, yes? Yet we are required to do more than that.

Yet, we are responsible to God, for what we already know is not full compliance with what we are required to do. I depend on God's mercy. It is all I can plead. You, and @JAL and all the rest, can go with your sure wisdom, knowledge and understanding. And may God bless you all. You're going to need it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ought implies can, if Cain had no ability then there was no choice and God spoke falslely.

Ought WHAT? Ability to do what? Cain had choice, and he chose what he wanted to do, and for that he was accountable. Whether or not he could actually have done the other, had he chosen it, is irrelevant. Also, whether or not he could have ACTUALLY chosen the other, by meaning mere compliance rather than obedience and rather than a heart for God, is of essence here. Cain cannot have pleased God, because of his mind of flesh.

Consider, if you will, if Cain had given the same sacrifice as Abel, but with no heart for God. Is that 'doing well'?

 

[Fervent]

Ought WHAT? Ability to do what? Cain had choice, and he chose what he wanted to do, and for that he was accountable. Whether or not he could actually have done the other, had he chosen it, is irrelevant. Also, whether or not he could have ACTUALLY chosen the other, by meaning mere compliance rather than obedience and rather than a heart for God, is of essence here. Cain cannot have pleased God, because of his mind of flesh.

Consider, if you will, if Cain had given the same sacrifice as Abel, but with no heart for God. Is that 'doing well'?

In saying Cain should rule over it, there is an ought. If Cain had no ability to make that decision, there's no such thing as a choice. If there is only one possibile outcome, then it is illogical to speak of a choice. God's words imply that Cain was capable of ruling over his sin, otherwise God's expectation(should) is not a true statement.

Now, I expect you to do a typical Calvinist out and deny the ability to establish what is ethical/moral and apply it to God. But to do so undermines our ability to trust Scripture, because God must ultimately be trustworthy in a manner that is understandable to humans. If He is free in the sense Calvinists try to assert because He is inscrutable, then even the gospel may not be trusted.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Is God a lier? He told cain:

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

• He said, Cain "could" be accepted if he did well. God is not a liar.
• He said Cain could rule his sin.

Hi F,
I'm in total agreement with you.
I admire you.
Just want to say that it gets tiring posting to persons that refuse to understand that if God gives man a CHOICE, it means man has free will.

So, yes. I do admire you.