Cain and Calvinism

[Brightfame52]

Everybody knows Cain did not inherit eternal life.

1Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Jud 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.


Calvinist thinking incorrectly states, that Cain never had any hope that he was predestined for destruction, that God choose Him for destruction, but what did God say in scripture? We know God is not a liar.


Gen 4:5-7 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."


God told Cain he had a choice, that if he did well he would be accepted. Cain had a chance at life. As do all people, all people are given a chance at life.


This choice is all throughout scripture.


Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.


John 3:15-17 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Cain wasn't able to do well, he was dead to God. Just like the young rich ruler wasn't able to keep the law.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Cain wasn't able to do well, he was dead to God. Just like the young rich ruler wasn't able to keep the law.

So God is a schizophrenic liar, with duel personalities? You are suggesting God did not know what He was talking about.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Without grace, we can only choose as Cain did...

 

[Brightfame52]

So God is a schizophrenic liar, with duel personalities? You are suggesting God did not know what He was talking about.

So God is a schizophrenic liar, with duel personalities? You are suggesting God did not know what He was talking about.

Cain was dead in sin like all other people and couldn't do anything good unless born again.

 

[friend of]

Cain was dead in sin like all other people and couldn't do anything good unless born again.

But not Abel, right? He wasn't like Cain, right?

 

[Brightfame52]

But not Abel, right? He wasn't like Cain, right?

At first he was like cain, but God had mercy on Abel and saved him.

 

[friend of]

At first he was like cain, but God had mercy on Abel and saved him.

It says God accepted Abel because his works were righteous. It doesn't imply at all the Abel was like Cain.

 

[Brightfame52]

It says God accepted Abel because his works were righteous. It doesn't imply at all the Abel was like Cain.

God accepted abel because abel was accepted in Christ,and God had mercy on him..

 

[friend of]

God accepted abel because abel was accepted in Christ,and God had mercy on him..

Why would God have mercy on Abel but not Cain?

For no reason? Just because?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Why would God have mercy on Abel but not Cain?

For no reason? Just because?

Why ask why? So you think God owes you an explanation? It’s not anything that Abel could take credit for - that’s all you or I need to know.

 

[friend of]

Why ask why? So you think God owes you an explanation? It’s not anything that Abel could take credit for - that’s all you or I need to know.

Goodness me. Am I not allowed to ask questions? Is that not the purpose of this forum? Can God not handle my simple questions or something? God approved of Able because he was righteous before God. God disapproved of Cain because his acts were wicked before God. If Cain had repented God said he would be accepted. Says it right there in the text.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would God have mercy on Abel but not Cain?

For no reason? Just because?

His own prerogative!

 

[Mark Quayle]

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Why ask why? So you think God owes you an explanation? It’s not anything that Abel could take credit for - that’s all you or I need to know.

Goodness me. Am I not allowed to ask questions? Is that not the purpose of this forum? Can God not handle my simple questions or something? God approved of Able because he was righteous before God. God disapproved of Cain because his acts were wicked before God. If Cain had repented God said he would be accepted. Says it right there in the text.

Where does it say that "If Cain had repented God said he would be accepted"? But maybe you're thinking that if Cain's heart had been right, his sacrifice would've been acceptable, or he would have made a different sacrifice. If so, why the question?

We humans do have a tendency to ask silly or ignorant questions, usually presumptuous, self-important, always assuming false notions. I consider such questions to be not quite honest. We don't know enough yet to be asking the real questions. We're not just backseat drivers —we are blind backseat drivers. Like children, we ask the question too soon. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you."

Consider this quote from CS Lewis' Till We Have Faces — A Fable Retold:

"I saw well why the gods* do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean? How can they meet us face to face till we have faces?”​

*(No, Lewis didn't believe in multiple gods)

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Goodness me. Am I not allowed to ask questions? Is that not the purpose of this forum? Can God not handle my simple questions or something? God approved of Able because he was righteous before God. God disapproved of Cain because his acts were wicked before God. If Cain had repented God said he would be accepted. Says it right there in the text.

Abel was more righteous before God than Cain because God gave him faith. His righteous acts were merely a witness to that faith - not the means by which he made himself acceptable to God. Says it right in Hebrews 11:4.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Abel was more righteous before God than Cain because God gave him faith. His righteous acts were merely a witness to that faith - not the means by which he made himself acceptable to God. Says it right in Hebrews 11:4.

Your view of faith being forced on man by God is not what the bulk of scripture shows. What is faith?

Heb 11:1&11:6 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen... But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

There are two parts to faith, believing what God says about Himself, and diligently seeking God. Nowhere is faith something God dumps on people. See what Jesus said about receiving the Holy Spirit:

John 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There is a set order there, the one who believes, and obeys Jesus is given the Holy Spirit. The one who is disobedient remains blind. This fits with the definition of faith, believing, followed by diligently seeking.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Without grace, we can only choose as Cain did...

All are given grace but some reject it.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

1Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

 

[Brightfame52]

Your view of faith being forced on man by God is not what the bulk of scripture shows. What is faith?



There are two parts to faith, believing what God says about Himself, and diligently seeking God. Nowhere is faith something God dumps on people. See what Jesus said about receiving the Holy Spirit:


There is a set order there, the one who believes, and obeys Jesus is given the Holy Spirit. The one who is disobedient remains blind. This fits with the definition of faith, believing, followed by diligently seeking.

Man by nature doesnt seek God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

And since Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 it cant be in or done by the natural man yet in the flesh, because Apostolic Authority and scripture Truth declares they which are in the flesh, meaning yet unregenerate cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

BTW Faith isnt dumped on anyone, its simply given in the new birth as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

 

[Clare73]

Your view of faith being forced on man by God is not what the bulk of scripture shows.

If God gives my disposition to prefer it, how is it forced on me.
I choose it voluntarily, without external force or constraint, because I prefer it, which is the meaning of free will.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Man by nature doesnt seek God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

And since Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 it cant be in or done by the natural man yet in the flesh, because Apostolic Authority and scripture Truth declares they which are in the flesh, meaning yet unregenerate cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

BTW Faith isnt dumped on anyone, its simply given in the new birth as a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

You mention Romans 8:8, but that must be read in the context of Romans 7. Where Paul is speaking of the unregenerated nature, the fact we are sold under sin. It tells us clearly the natural man can delight in God's words when he/she hears them. But that the flesh overpowers us. This shows us that man can respond to things such as faith, and even try to be obedient, which is what Jesus said leads to enlightenment.

John 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.


Rom 7:14-23 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

If God gives my disposition to prefer it, how is it forced on me.
I choose it voluntarily, without external force or constraint, because I prefer it, which is the meaning of free will.

You know what I mean. You only say the word voluntarily, because you feel God molds the will of certain elect ones to believe, and blinds the rest. It is not genuine free will, where a person due to their acceptance of God, and His way obtains salvation.