Busting the myth that gays can't change....

[selfinflikted]

The other option is to embrace a loving Christianity in which we accept ourselves and others for who we are. That includes accepting gay people. I regard Christians who insist that "homosexuality is a sin" as in error. They are just plain wrong about that. Fortunately, such people can come to see the errors in their thinking, and they can change their negative attitudes toward gay people.

The real question before us should be not whether gay people can change, since there is no reason to want to do so. The real question should be whether those who harbor prejudice against gay people can change. And the good news is that they can. People can unlearn anti-gay prejudice, just as they can un-learn all forms of prejudice.

I agree 100%. It's just unfortunate, however, that those christians who are the "real" christians imo are too few and far between. That, or the "other" christians are just louder.

God has revealed Himself to mankind through the bible. I know of no other reliable source to gain an understanding of God's desire for man. I also need no other source in order to believe what God has given us.

God has provided rules and guidelines on how man is to live and conduct himself. They are not to deprive us of anything but to safegard man against the evil and destructive desires of the flesh.

Yes, heaven FORBID that if there really was a god as christians descibe him, that he would come down off his perch in the sky and tell us exactly what he wants, rather than us floundering around with ancient manuscripts and the like. Too much effort on his part, I assume.

Just a note on one of your questions here that outlines more than you may realize:
While I and others have entertained such requests on many occasions and on different topics, it ultimately is not worth doing so. For what non-believers (and sometimes believers) fail to understand is that even if a secularist argument is persuasive enough to convince a non-believer to obey God, it is still being done in vanity because Christ is not their Lord. In fact, the driving premise would be to try to judge God and His wisdom and strip God's Authority out while at the same time enjoying His gracious blessings we receive – that would be a dualistic and an ungracious position.

Translation: There IS no other reason. Thanks for your honesty, sort of.

Ya know, I tend to see it the same way. I've never been against my any group of people, and I never condemned anyone to Hell. I never hated anyone. For this, other Christians would condemn me, tell me I was holding the gates of Hell open for people, and even tell me that I would be going there myself. I wasn't a REAL Christian to them. The only REAL Christians to those people are the ones whose God hates all the same people they do.

I've never tried to evangelize anyone. I've never encouraged anyone to accept Christ. And I've certainly never threatened anyone with Hellfire. However, I've brought people to Christ just by being a friend to others. And I had no idea of this until they told me, because I'd never set out to convert them in the first place!

But somehow I allowed myself to fall away from God for a time. Only recently did I find out that the few people who give Christianity this horrible name by preaching wrath and hatred are NOT the majority of Christians, nor do they have a monopoly on Christ. Sometimes I feel myself slipping back into this mindset, but it helps to think about these things. The people who hate my buddy selfinflikted do NOT speak for all of us.

*Climbs down from soap-box*

Thanks goodness for that!

 

[Ohioprof]

God has revealed Himself to mankind through the bible. I know of no other reliable source to gain an understanding of God's desire for man. I also need no other source in order to believe what God has given us.

God has provided rules and guidelines on how man is to live and conduct himself. They are not to deprive us of anything but to safegard man against the evil and destructive desires of the flesh.

The problem with this argument is that different people interpret the Bible differently. Some people try to take the Bible literally, like a baseball rule book. They can't, of course, because the Bible is full of contradictions and rules that simply don't make sense in the world we live in. So these folks interpret the Bible to give priority to some rules over others, by saying things like, "The Old Testament has been superceded by the New Testament." That is a convenient way to avoid following rules in the Old Testament that people find senseless or inconvenient, and there are many such rules.

Other Christians do not interpret the Bible as a rule book, but rather as books of stories and of collective wisdom by people seeking to know God. They view the Gospels as containing a central message of God's universal love, and of Jesus' call to love God and our neighbor, even to love our enemies.

I regard the Bible is the latter fashion. I do not see the Bible as a rule book, but rather as a collection of books containing wisdom from different sources. I regard the Bible as containing errors. I do not believe in making an idol of the Bible; I think too many people do that, and they begin to worship the Bible instead of God. God reveals himself in many different ways. To hold the Bible above all other forms of God's revelation is, in my view, Biblical idolatry.

 

[NeTrips]

Ya know, I tend to see it the same way. I've never been against my any group of people, and I never condemned anyone to Hell. I never hated anyone. For this, other Christians would condemn me, tell me I was holding the gates of Hell open for people, and even tell me that I would be going there myself. I wasn't a REAL Christian to them. The only REAL Christians to those people are the ones whose God hates all the same people they do.

I've never tried to evangelize anyone. I've never encouraged anyone to accept Christ. And I've certainly never threatened anyone with Hellfire. However, I've brought people to Christ just by being a friend to others. And I had no idea of this until they told me, because I'd never set out to convert them in the first place!

But somehow I allowed myself to fall away from God for a time. Only recently did I find out that the few people who give Christianity this horrible name by preaching wrath and hatred are NOT the majority of Christians, nor do they have a monopoly on Christ. Sometimes I feel myself slipping back into this mindset, but it helps to think about these things. The people who hate my buddy selfinflikted do NOT speak for all of us.

*Climbs down from soap-box*

You rail against shadows. It is not those who identify as homosexual that Christians oppose or dislike or hate or are prejudiced against. It is the act of sex between 2 people of the same gender that is opposed as is any attempt to deceive people that these acts should be accepted as a simple alternative, tolerated as morally neutral, or perceived as benign. Granted, there are those who hate the person and wish them harm and I am not speaking of such people or supportive of their actions.

The watering down of scripture through linguistic gymnastics to make the bible read in a way that conforms to a person's desires in no way can be called Christian. To deceive a person into believing that making a someone feel good here and now is better than loving them enough to be honest and tell them the truth, that their actions have eternal consequences, is simply wrong.

 

[selfinflikted]

You rail against shadows. It is not those who identify as homosexual that Christians oppose or dislike or hate or are prejudiced against. It is the act of sex between 2 people of the same gender that is opposed as is any attempt to deceive people that these acts should be accepted as a simple alternative, tolerated as morally neutral, or perceived as benign. Granted, there are those who hate the person and wish them harm and I am not speaking of such people or supportive of their actions.

The watering down of scripture through linguistic gymnastics to make the bible read in a way that conforms to a person's desires in no way can be called Christian. To deceive a person into believing that making a someone feel good here and now is better than loving them enough to be honest and tell them the truth, that their actions have eternal consequences, is simply wrong.

No. You are simply wrong. I can break this down very easily for you, check it out:

I can lump a person in your position into one of two categories.

In my personal experience, that's all there is. Period. You can sugar coat it with all the sugary goodness in the world, but imo, when it comes down to it, and if you are honest with yourself you will find this to be true.

Either that, or I'm completely wrong. But that's how I see it from experience, at least.

 

[NeTrips]

The problem with this argument is that different people interpret the Bible differently. Some people try to take the Bible literally, like a baseball rule book. They can't, of course, because the Bible is full of contradictions and rules that simply don't make sense in the world we live in. So these folks interpret the Bible to give priority to some rules over others, by saying things like, "The Old Testament has been superceded by the New Testament." That is a convenient way to avoid following rules in the Old Testament that people find senseless or inconvenient, and there are many such rules.
....

There are perceived contradictions in the bible, but there are many resources available to those who desire to know the truth about the perceived contradictions. I beleive General Apologetics forum deals with these for anyone interested in a deeper understanding of the bible.

As to the bible not making sense in today's world, I would have to agree with this to a point; the bible does not condone what man condones today and is in conflict with what man desires to have affirmed. This does not make the bible wrong or irrelevant. It makes evident the fact that the desires of the flesh are never in agreement with God's desire for man.

 

[Ohioprof]

There are perceived contradictions in the bible, but there are many resources available to those who desire to know the truth about the perceived contradictions. I beleive General Apologetics forum deals with these for anyone interested in a deeper understanding of the bible.

As to the bible not making sense in today's world, I would have to agree with this to a point; the bible does not condone what man condones today and is in conflict with what man desires to have affirmed. This does not make the bible wrong or irrelevant. It makes evident the fact that the desires of the flesh are never in agreement with God's desire for man.

Or, as I would interpret it, in many instances the Bible probably is wrong. That's okay. We don't need an infallible rule book; we need critical thinking and a desire for knowledge from all available sources, not just one source like the Bible.

You see, I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. I believe the Bible is the words of men, and men are fallible. All human knowledge is partial.

 

[NeTrips]

No. You are simply wrong. I can break this down very easily for you, check it out:

I can lump a person in your position into one of two categories. ....

In my personal experience, that's all there is. Period. You can sugar coat it with all the sugary goodness in the world, but imo, when it comes down to it, and if you are honest with yourself you will find this to be true.

Either that, or I'm completely wrong. But that's how I see it from experience, at least.

If your experience limits you to these two options, then I would politely suggest that your experience may be limited. There are many people who oppose homosexuality based on the act being against God's desire for mankind and not on either of the two options you limit everyone to.

 

[Ohioprof]

You rail against shadows. It is not those who identify as homosexual that Christians oppose or dislike or hate or are prejudiced against. It is the act of sex between 2 people of the same gender that is opposed as is any attempt to deceive people that these acts should be accepted as a simple alternative, tolerated as morally neutral, or perceived as benign. Granted, there are those who hate the person and wish them harm and I am not speaking of such people or supportive of their actions.

The watering down of scripture through linguistic gymnastics to make the bible read in a way that conforms to a person's desires in no way can be called Christian. To deceive a person into believing that making a someone feel good here and now is better than loving them enough to be honest and tell them the truth, that their actions have eternal consequences, is simply wrong.

I don't think this is accurate. As a gay person, I perceive prejudice against me as a person coming from many Christians. They dislike gay people, and they attack gay people, and they harbor prejudice against gay people.

I think the claim that they "love the sinner, hate the sin" is a lot of nonsense. The Christian opponents of equality target gay people....real, live people. Not acts....people.

It's too bad that these Christians do this. They don't win over any gay people this way; they just make enemies, and they tend to make Christianity look bad.

 

[selfinflikted]

If your experience limits you to these two options, then I would politely suggest that your experience may be limited. There are many people who oppose homosexuality based on the act being against God's desire for mankind and not on either of the two options you limit everyone to.

Maybe my experience is limited. However, being gay exposes me to a lot more resistance in life than the normal, every-day guy. I stand by what I said, and do not buy into the fact that those who oppose homosexuality so vehemently do so out of good will. That would be just plain silly. They do so out of some personal agenda - either because it's "SUPER ICKY GROSS!" or, they are trying to hide something within themselves.

 

[NeTrips]

Or, as I would interpret it, in many instances the Bible probably is wrong. That's okay. We don't need an infallible rule book; we need critical thinking and a desire for knowledge from all available sources, not just one source like the Bible.

You see, I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. I believe the Bible is the words of men, and men are fallible. All human knowledge is partial.

Here we part ways. I believe the bible to be inerrant in the original manuscsripts. I need no other source to learn God's desires for mankind.

1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[NeTrips]

I don't think this is accurate. As a gay person, I perceive prejudice against me as a person coming from many Christians. They dislike gay people, and they attack gay people, and they harbor prejudice against gay people.

I think the claim that they "love the sinner, hate the sin" is a lot of nonsense. The Christian opponents of equality target gay people....real, live people. Not acts....people.

It's too bad that these Christians do this. They don't win over any gay people this way; they just make enemies, and they tend to make Christianity look bad.

The claim that it is "equallity" being opposed makes for many emotional responses and great headlines, sort of like the relabeling of abortion proponents as "pro-choice". Yet it does not change the fact that it is an action being opposed, not a philosophy.

 

[Ohioprof]

The claim that it is "equallity" being opposed makes for many emotional responses and great headlines, sort of like the relabeling of abortion proponents as "pro-choice". Yet it does not change the fact that it is an action being opposed, not a philosophy.

What "action" are you opposing by denying me the right to marry my spouse? The action of marriage?

Anyhow, we now can get married in Mass., which is a great joy!

 

[Ohioprof]

Here we part ways. I believe the bible to be inerrant in the original manuscsripts. I need no other source to learn God's desires for mankind.

1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Yes, we disagree about this.

 

[selfinflikted]

The claim that it is "equallity" being opposed makes for many emotional responses and great headlines, sort of like the relabeling of abortion proponents as "pro-choice". Yet it does not change the fact that it is an action being opposed, not a philosophy.

This is outrageously silly. Do you think that by denying gays marriage, they will stop having sex? Is this what you mean, or am I misunderstanding you? LOL

 

[NeTrips]

What "action" are you opposing by denying me the right to marry my spouse? The action of marriage?

The sinful act being opposed is sex between members of the same gender.

btw, how can one have a spouse unless they are married?

Anyhow, we now can get married in Mass., which is a great joy!

I didn't know you were a citizen of ma?

 

[SimplyMe]

If your experience limits you to these two options, then I would politely suggest that your experience may be limited. There are many people who oppose homosexuality based on the act being against God's desire for mankind and not on either of the two options you limit everyone to.

If you are solely against the action, why are you so adamant about the efficacy of ex-gay therapy? After all, the homosexuals, providing they are celibate, are not at odds with God. I could understand programs that would encourage celibacy, much like abstinence only type programs being promoted in the schools.

But the fact that reparative therapy is so heavily promoted by Fundamentalist Christians and yourself, therapy that is designed to change something that you freely admit is not a sin in any way and that even teaches how it is evil to be homosexual, would appear to reinforce the claims of Ohioprof and selfinflikted.

I've known far too many homosexuals that were taught that it was not the actions that were evil but they themselves. They were taught, much as many fundamentalists try to claim from Romans, that they were "unnatural" because of their desires. If the argument was not being made against homosexuals for who they are and not for what they do, there would be no reason for us to be here on a thread talking whether or not you've busted "the myth that gays can't change". Just to repeat, this entire argument is based exactly on the attitudes that Ohioprof and selfinflikted are complaining about.

 

[Ohioprof]

The sinful act being opposed is sex between members of the same gender.

btw, how can one have a spouse unless they are married?



I didn't know you were a citizen of ma?

I am actually in Mass. right now, to sell my recently deceased dad's house.

I do not live full time in Mass, and so I personally cannot get married here. But it is a joy that gay people in this wonderful state can get married.

People can have a spouse even if the state won't recognize their marriage. People can be married in their hearts. Now we need to win the equal right to marry legally in all states. It will be a long, uphill struggle. But the people of the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts have led the way. Hooray for Massachusetts!

 

[Ohioprof]

The sinful act being opposed is sex between members of the same gender.

btw, how can one have a spouse unless they are married?



I didn't know you were a citizen of ma?

I do not regard intimate relations with a spouse of the same sex as a sin.

 

[Ramona]

You rail against shadows. It is not those who identify as homosexual that Christians oppose or dislike or hate or are prejudiced against. It is the act of sex between 2 people of the same gender that is opposed as is any attempt to deceive people that these acts should be accepted as a simple alternative, tolerated as morally neutral, or perceived as benign. Granted, there are those who hate the person and wish them harm and I am not speaking of such people or supportive of their actions.

The watering down of scripture through linguistic gymnastics to make the bible read in a way that conforms to a person's desires in no way can be called Christian. To deceive a person into believing that making a someone feel good here and now is better than loving them enough to be honest and tell them the truth, that their actions have eternal consequences, is simply wrong.

This is utterly false. I hear that "love the sinner, hate the sin" one-liner in every thread in which this is raised. Ultimately, however, by the end of the thread the same people who preached this messge are throwing around words like "sodomite" and "pervert," spreading falsehoods and misinformation left and right. Those people are free to claim to love the "sinner," but those of us who don't take their words at face value see no love whatsoever.

Let's step away from the threads for a minute. A very dear friend of mine, who is Jewish and refers to Jesus as "just another false Moschiach," once told me, "we don't hate the attraction, we just dislike the action." This one sentence sent us spiraling into a thelogical argument up epic proportions. I asked my friend questions. And to him, I'm not just some random debate opponent on a message board with no name and no face. We're accountability partners, we're friends, we love and care for each-other. And so he wasn't afraid to be honest with me.

By the time I got too tired to continue talking and went to bed, he'd told me that he knew it was an irrational belief to hold. Because I was a nontheist at the time, he had started out telling me that I'm not under the same "spiritual slavery" as he is, and I'm not one of "G-d's chosen," therefore he doesn't expect me to support all of "G-d's rules." But the conversation progressed. Eventually he told me that he feels these are, in his words, "idiotic decrees" from "some dude in the sky," and that it troubles him to hold such views when he sees how much pain it causes.

Do you see it?

When one sets aside the dogma and the doctrine, we can see each-other as people. We don't see dirty perverts and evil Bible-thumpers. We see human beings, with joys, sorrows, families, friends, hobbies....we see that we are all the same. And it shakes our safe little worlds when we realise this.

To spit such vitriol at anyone - ANYONE - whom one sees as a sinner accomplishes nothing. You will win no-one to Christ through malice. I don't care whether you've studied Leviticus for the past 25 years. I don't care about your PhD in the meaning of the word "arsenokoites" as used in the Tanakh. It is insignificant, it is so tiny, it is so useless compared to the eternal LOVE that is our Lord CHRIST. And by hurting His children, you are hurting Him.

Please, for the love of all that is good and righteous, stop preaching hatred in His most Holy Name!

 

[.Sabre.]

This is utterly false. I hear that "love the sinner, hate the sin" one-liner in every thread in which this is raised. Ultimately, however, by the end of the thread the same people who preached this messge are throwing around words like "sodomite" and "pervert," spreading falsehoods and misinformation left and right. Those people are free to claim to love the "sinner," but those of us who don't take their words at face value see no love whatsoever.

Let's step away from the threads for a minute. A very dear friend of mine, who is Jewish and refers to Jesus as "just another false Moschiach," once told me, "we don't hate the attraction, we just dislike the action." This one sentence sent us spiraling into a thelogical argument up epic proportions. I asked my friend questions. And to him, I'm not just some random debate opponent on a message board with no name and no face. We're accountability partners, we're friends, we love and care for each-other. And so he wasn't afraid to be honest with me.

By the time I got too tired to continue talking and went to bed, he'd told me that he knew it was an irrational belief to hold. Because I was a nontheist at the time, he had started out telling me that I'm not under the same "spiritual slavery" as he is, and I'm not one of "G-d's chosen," therefore he doesn't expect me to support all of "G-d's rules." But the conversation progressed. Eventually he told me that he feels these are, in his words, "idiotic decrees" from "some dude in the sky," and that it troubles him to hold such views when he sees how much pain it causes.

Do you see it?

When one sets aside the dogma and the doctrine, we can see each-other as people. We don't see dirty perverts and evil Bible-thumpers. We see human beings, with joys, sorrows, families, friends, hobbies....we see that we are all the same. And it shakes our safe little worlds when we realise this.

To spit such vitriol at anyone - ANYONE - whom one sees as a sinner accomplishes nothing. You will win no-one to Christ through malice. I don't care whether you've studied Leviticus for the past 25 years. I don't care about your PhD in the meaning of the word "arsenokoites" as used in the Tanakh. It is insignificant, it is so tiny, it is so useless compared to the eternal LOVE that is our Lord CHRIST. And by hurting His children, you are hurting Him.

Please, for the love of all that is good and righteous, stop preaching hatred in His most Holy Name!

You're right. Guilt trips and mud-slinging do no good.