Busting the myth that gays can't change....

[Ohioprof]

so you would rather believe a poll then the personal testimony of someone living a joyous life. this is no anecdote, this is reality. i see the man joyous and happy a few times a week. but i know, he is just lying to himself. he will come to his senses someday right?

I am leading a joyous life. I am gay. I am joyous being who I am, and that is gay.

 

[Freedom26]

There are ways of stopping people from having sexual feelings. Namely, pain and torture. For example, if someone is electricuted every time they have a sexual feeling, their brain will sort of learn to stop the feelings in order to protect the body. This stops sexual feelings, but I don't think it's possible to then learn to be sexually attracted to anyone that you weren't attracted to beforehand.

However, there's no reason for anyone to change their sexuality. I've come to these forums to oppose ignorance and many Christians seem to be prejudiced against homosexuality. Why? It isn't a sin? It's normal and natural and homosexuals are equal to heterosexuals in any way.

In response to the question, it is possible to abuse people in order to prevent them from having sexual feelings - however, I'm unsure as to whether or not it is genuinely possible to then enforce a different sexuality upon them. What I do know is that this would be a horrible and unnecessary thing to do.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Hmm... pain and torture is the Either while the Or of self-control (one of the fruits of the Spirit btw) is mysteriously non-existent.

The focus of personal satisfaction being the litmus test in a few of the arguments is also an obvious theme that is strikingly informative. I wonder if people actually know what dogma they knowingly or unknowingly declare following and has this for its definition:
the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life.

 

[IzzyPop]

Hmm... pain and torture is the Either while the Or of self-control (one of the fruits of the Spirit btw) is mysteriously non-existent.

The focus of personal satisfaction being the litmus test in a few of the arguments is also an obvious theme that is strikingly informative. I wonder if people actually know what dogma they knowingly or unknowingly declare following and has this for its definition:
the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life.

I don't think that anyone is saying that hedonism is the way to go, but rather there is no difference in the quality of love between heterosexuals and homosexuals. If you are not demanding that heterosexuals change, it follows that you should not demand the homosexuals change.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I don't think that anyone is saying that hedonism is the way to go, but rather there is no difference in the quality of love between heterosexuals and homosexuals. If you are not demanding that heterosexuals change, it follows that you should not demand the homosexuals change.

God ordained a man and wife as His intended creation for mankind. As you display the Atheist self-identification, you don't have to agree with that. Hold that "lack of belief", but I wouldn't then go and expect everyone to buy into that heterosexual is the same as homosexual premise either.

Two people of the same gender want to call something involving sexual immorality love like X? Such is how the world is, but objectively it doesn't make it so any more than a fornicator saying they love the same as X.

Besides, there has always been and always will be the stumbling block to try to convince people that same-gender sexuality is moral whereas the godly and ordained heterosexual model is understood out of God-given sense. So you will have to pardon while people know better than buy the "no difference" or quality claim - it just isn't there.

And just FYI - simply leaving things to a qualifier of heterosexual doesn't make something moral either. There are plenty of heterosexual perversions of what God intended as well.

 

[Ohioprof]

God ordained a man and wife as His intended creation for mankind. As you display the Atheist self-identification, you don't have to agree with that. Hold that "lack of belief", but I wouldn't then go and expect everyone to buy into that heterosexual is the same as homosexual premise either.

Two people of the same gender want to call something involving sexual immorality love like X? Such is how the world is, but objectively it doesn't make it so any more than a fornicator saying they love the same as X.

Besides, there has always been and always will be the stumbling block to try to convince people that same-gender sexuality is moral whereas the godly and ordained heterosexual model is understood out of God-given sense. So you will have to pardon while people know better than buy the "no difference" or quality claim - it just isn't there.

And just FYI - simply leaving things to a qualifier of heterosexual doesn't make something moral either. There are plenty of heterosexual perversions of what God intended as well.

Our love is NOT sexual immorality. You can repeat over and over your belief that it is, but you are wrong. You use the Bible to judge other people. That's Biblical idolatry, and I think it's a sin. Your prejudice against gay people is also a sin, in my view. But hey....you can sin if you want to. It's not my concern. Just leave gay people alone and quit slandering us, please. It's nasty of you.

 

[IzzyPop]

God ordained a man and wife as His intended creation for mankind. As you display the Atheist self-identification, you don't have to agree with that. Hold that "lack of belief", but I wouldn't then go and expect everyone to buy into that heterosexual is the same as homosexual premise either.

Why not? Love is love. How you you quantify it? How do you show that love between 2 consenting men is qualitatively different then love between a consenting man and woman?

Two people of the same gender want to call something involving sexual immorality love like X? Such is how the world is, but objectively it doesn't make it so any more than a fornicator saying they love the same as X.

Well, considering that I'm an atheist, the whole 'fornicator' thing doesn't bother me too much, either. Love between consenting adults is not wrong in a moral sense, with a few exceptions.

Besides, there has always been and always will be the stumbling block to try to convince people that same-gender sexuality is moral whereas the godly and ordained heterosexual model is understood out of God-given sense. So you will have to pardon while people know better than buy the "no difference" or quality claim - it just isn't there.

Then explain the difference to me. Try to use extra-biblical references so that you can show to an atheist how homosexuality is wrong.

And just FYI - simply leaving things to a qualifier of heterosexual doesn't make something moral either. There are plenty of heterosexual perversions of what God intended as well.

But if there is no difference in the quality that defines the love, there is nothing to make it more or less moral than heterosexual love, no matter the 'perversions' involved.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Our love is NOT sexual immorality. You can repeat over and over your belief that it is, but you are wrong. You use the Bible to judge other people. That's Biblical idolatry, and I think it's a sin. Your prejudice against gay people is also a sin, in my view. But hey....you can sin if you want to. It's not my concern. Just leave gay people alone and quit slandering us, please. It's nasty of you.

It would seem that there is some needed work on what Biblical idolatry is. And just so you know, getting emotive, going into a slanderous rant because someone actually points out what scripture says on an immorality doesn't give your argument that missing umph.

If you wanted to know a little more about idolatry:

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

You can call whatever your "our" you refer to as whatever you wish. That may be your prerogative based on what you value most, but this is the discussion and debate area and the thread has a topic. Trying to force issues into a state of emotional blackmail or displays of reactionary vitriol for admitting Christian teaching shows X,Y, or Z won't cut it here.

 

[selfinflikted]

nothing is impossible for my God. but that is not what I was saying. i was saying they are free from the bondage of that sinful nature. they still might be homosexual and have urges (not sin) but are able to overcome through the power of God's word. aren't you Christian? don't you believe in the power of God's word? or does it only work for the small stuff like a new mercedes?

Funny you should mention this. There was a point in my life where I pleaded with god to "free" me of my homosexuality.. he didn't. He also didn't bestow a new mercedes unto me. In fact, I've never seen god do anything.

You are making huge assumptions here. I don't want to be "free" of who I am. I am happy being gay. Perhaps you'd do better to try to solve real social problems instead of imaginary ones. Being gay is not a sin, not a problem. It's just a characteristic of some people.

Telling gay people we can be "free" of being gay is like telling a left-handed person they can be "free" of being left-handed. It makes no sense.

Are you kidding me? This makes perfect sense - for a christian. Let me demonstrate:

First, we have the happy-go-lucky homosexual, living his life going on about his business not bothering anyone. Along comes Mr Christian, and he tells the Happy Homosexual the "good news" about how is life is SINFUL and how he will BURN IN HELL if he does not repent and turn away from his IMMORAL HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE. This makes Happy Homosexual feel REALLY bad. He starts freaking out over the prospect of hell, spirals into a deep depressive and self-hating state. Happy Homosexual is no longer happy. Mr Christian now has Formerly-Happy Homosexual convinced that through the power of god he can live a godly life, free from the BONDAGE OF HOMOSEXUALITY and can now get into heaven. Only, Formerly-Happy Homosexual really isn't free from anything - he now has to deny who he is every single day and live a life of celibacy and deceit.

See? Homosexuals really are unhappy people.

...Besides, there has always been and always will be the stumbling block to try to convince people that same-gender sexuality is moral whereas the godly and ordained heterosexual model is understood out of God-given sense. ...

"God-given sense"? Oh, I see.. in other words.. "Because I said so" is what you really mean. I get it. I've been wrong all along because I lack god-given sense. It's all so CLEAR now. /meh

 

[Ramona]

Are you kidding me? This makes perfect sense - for a christian. Let me demonstrate:

First, we have the happy-go-lucky homosexual, living his life going on about his business not bothering anyone. Along comes Mr Christian, and he tells the Happy Homosexual the "good news" about how is life is SINFUL and how he will BURN IN HELL if he does not repent and turn away from his IMMORAL HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE. This makes Happy Homosexual feel REALLY bad. He starts freaking out over the prospect of hell, spirals into a deep depressive and self-hating state. Happy Homosexual is no longer happy. Mr Christian now has Formerly-Happy Homosexual convinced that through the power of god he can live a godly life, free from the BONDAGE OF HOMOSEXUALITY and can now get into heaven. Only, Formerly-Happy Homosexual really isn't free from anything - he now has to deny who he is every single day and live a life of celibacy and deceit.

See? Homosexuals really are unhappy people. Christians (and other homophobes) have created this unhappiness. See christians, it's because of YOU that homosexuality is "harmful". You've created this unhappiness, this hurt for us. Moral of the story? STOP IT!

I'm sorry...that story is very sad and very accurate...but I could NOT stop laughing at the fact that you called your protagonist "Happy Homosexual."

 

[selfinflikted]

I'm sorry...that story is very sad and very accurate...but I could NOT stop laughing at the fact that you called your protagonist "Happy Homosexual."

I'll let you in on the secret identity of "Happy Homosexual"... it's me!

 

[Ramona]

I'll let you in on the secret identity of "Happy Homosexual"... it's me!

Well, now the story is very depressing. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I hope you're doing better now.

 

[Ohioprof]

It would seem that there is some needed work on what Biblical idolatry is. And just so you know, getting emotive, going into a slanderous rant because someone actually points out what scripture says on an immorality doesn't give your argument that missing umph.

If you wanted to know a little more about idolatry:

Colossians 3:5
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

You can call whatever your "our" you refer to as whatever you wish. That may be your prerogative based on what you value most, but this is the discussion and debate area and the thread has a topic. Trying to force issues into a state of emotional blackmail or displays of reactionary vitriol for admitting Christian teaching shows X,Y, or Z won't cut it here.

Slanderous rant? No, sir. Merely speaking the truth as I see it. Your attacks on gay people don't cut it here, brother. Your attacks on gay people will be answered, whether you like it or not.

If you continue to use your Bible to attack gay people, we'll answer you. No slander, just the truth about our lives. You can't get away with these attacks on gay people without being answered, my friend. That's just how it is. You can't use the Bible to slander other people with impunity. You'll hear back from us.

 

[selfinflikted]

Well, now the story is very depressing. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I hope you're doing better now.

No offense to any REAL christians here (and by "real" I mean those who take the greatest commandment to heart - you know, the one about love )but, once I figured out christianity for what it is, I was better almost immediately. I found that it wasn't me who was deluded.. rather it was them. Well, that and a few months of cognitive therapy.. but that's neither here nor there...

 

[Ohioprof]

Funny you should mention this. There was a point in my life where I pleaded with god to "free" me of my homosexuality.. he didn't. He also didn't bestow a new mercedes unto me. In fact, I've never seen god do anything.



Are you kidding me? This makes perfect sense - for a christian. Let me demonstrate:

First, we have the happy-go-lucky homosexual, living his life going on about his business not bothering anyone. Along comes Mr Christian, and he tells the Happy Homosexual the "good news" about how is life is SINFUL and how he will BURN IN HELL if he does not repent and turn away from his IMMORAL HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE. This makes Happy Homosexual feel REALLY bad. He starts freaking out over the prospect of hell, spirals into a deep depressive and self-hating state. Happy Homosexual is no longer happy. Mr Christian now has Formerly-Happy Homosexual convinced that through the power of god he can live a godly life, free from the BONDAGE OF HOMOSEXUALITY and can now get into heaven. Only, Formerly-Happy Homosexual really isn't free from anything - he now has to deny who he is every single day and live a life of celibacy and deceit.

See? Homosexuals really are unhappy people. Christians (and other homophobes) have created this unhappiness. See christians, it's because of YOU that homosexuality is "harmful". You've created this unhappiness, this hurt for us. Moral of the story? STOP IT!



"God-given sense"? Oh, I see.. in other words.. "Because I said so" is what you really mean. I get it. I've been wrong all along because I lack god-given sense. It's all so CLEAR now. /meh

The other option is to embrace a loving Christianity in which we accept ourselves and others for who we are. That includes accepting gay people. I regard Christians who insist that "homosexuality is a sin" as in error. They are just plain wrong about that. Fortunately, such people can come to see the errors in their thinking, and they can change their negative attitudes toward gay people.

The real question before us should be not whether gay people can change, since there is no reason to want to do so. The real question should be whether those who harbor prejudice against gay people can change. And the good news is that they can. People can unlearn anti-gay prejudice, just as they can un-learn all forms of prejudice.

 

[NeTrips]

Anyone got anything that doesn't boil down to "the Bible SEZ!" to explain why God has such a problem with homosexuality?

God has revealed Himself to mankind through the bible. I know of no other reliable source to gain an understanding of God's desire for man. I also need no other source in order to believe what God has given us.

God has provided rules and guidelines on how man is to live and conduct himself. They are not to deprive us of anything but to safegard man against the evil and destructive desires of the flesh.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

... Then explain the difference to me. Try to use extra-biblical references so that you can show to an atheist how homosexuality is wrong...

Just a note on one of your questions here that outlines more than you may realize:
While I and others have entertained such requests on many occasions and on different topics, it ultimately is not worth doing so. For what non-believers (and sometimes believers) fail to understand is that even if a secularist argument is persuasive enough to convince a non-believer to obey God, it is still being done in vanity because Christ is not their Lord. In fact, the driving premise would be to try to judge God and His wisdom and strip God's Authority out while at the same time enjoying His gracious blessings we receive – that would be a dualistic and an ungracious position.

 

[Ramona]

No offense to any REAL christians here (and by "real" I mean those who take the greatest commandment to heart - you know, the one about love )but, once I figured out christianity for what it is, I was better almost immediately. I found that it wasn't me who was deluded.. rather it was them. Well, that and a few months of cognitive therapy.. but that's neither here nor there...

Ya know, I tend to see it the same way. I've never been against my any group of people, and I never condemned anyone to Hell. I never hated anyone. For this, other Christians would condemn me, tell me I was holding the gates of Hell open for people, and even tell me that I would be going there myself. I wasn't a REAL Christian to them. The only REAL Christians to those people are the ones whose God hates all the same people they do.

I've never tried to evangelize anyone. I've never encouraged anyone to accept Christ. And I've certainly never threatened anyone with Hellfire. However, I've brought people to Christ just by being a friend to others. And I had no idea of this until they told me, because I'd never set out to convert them in the first place!

But somehow I allowed myself to fall away from God for a time. Only recently did I find out that the few people who give Christianity this horrible name by preaching wrath and hatred are NOT the majority of Christians, nor do they have a monopoly on Christ. Sometimes I feel myself slipping back into this mindset, but it helps to think about these things. The people who hate my buddy selfinflikted do NOT speak for all of us.

*Climbs down from soap-box*

 

[IzzyPop]

Just a note on one of your questions here that outlines more than you may realize:
While I and others have entertained such requests on many occasions and on different topics, it ultimately is not worth doing so. For what non-believers (and sometimes believers) fail to understand is that even if a secularist argument is persuasive enough to convince a non-believer to obey God, it is still being done in vanity because Christ is not their Lord. In fact, the driving premise would be to try to judge God and His wisdom and strip God's Authority out while at the same time enjoying His gracious blessings we receive – that would be a dualistic and an ungracious position.

So there is no other justification other then 'the Bible says so'. Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Ramona]

So there is no other justification other then 'the Bible says so'. Thank you for clarifying that.

That is HIGHLY debatable.