Busting the myth that gays can't change....

[Ramona]

I am actually in Mass. right now, to sell my recently deceased dad's house.

I do not live full time in Mass, and so I personally cannot get married here. But it is a joy that gay people in this wonderful state can get married.

People can have a spouse even if the state won't recognize their marriage. People can be married in their hearts. Now we need to win the equal right to marry legally in all states. It will be a long, uphill struggle. But the people of the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts have led the way. Hooray for Massachusetts!

((((((Ohioprof))))))

I'm terribly sorry to hear about your dad. I wish you could have visited MA under happier circumstances. Even setting aside the gay marriage issue, it's an amazing place. I lived there for a few months, but I'd more back in an instant if I could. What part are you in?

 

[NeTrips]

I am actually in Mass. right now, to sell my recently deceased dad's house.

my sincere condolences on your father's passing. It's a tough housing market here right now, I hope the sale goes quickly.

 

[NeTrips]

This is outrageously silly. Do you think that by denying gays marriage, they will stop having sex? Is this what you mean, or am I misunderstanding you? LOL

You misunderstand me. But I am glad to have brought a smile to you today.

 

[selfinflikted]

This is utterly false. I hear that "love the sinner, hate the sin" one-liner in every thread in which this is raised. Ultimately, however, by the end of the thread the same people who preached this messge are throwing around words like "sodomite" and "pervert," spreading falsehoods and misinformation left and right. Those people are free to claim to love the "sinner," but those of us who don't take their words at face value see no love whatsoever.

Let's step away from the threads for a minute. A very dear friend of mine, who is Jewish and refers to Jesus as "just another false Moschiach," once told me, "we don't hate the attraction, we just dislike the action." This one sentence sent us spiraling into a thelogical argument up epic proportions. I asked my friend questions. And to him, I'm not just some random debate opponent on a message board with no name and no face. We're accountability partners, we're friends, we love and care for each-other. And so he wasn't afraid to be honest with me.

By the time I got too tired to continue talking and went to bed, he'd told me that he knew it was an irrational belief to hold. Because I was a nontheist at the time, he had started out telling me that I'm not under the same "spiritual slavery" as he is, and I'm not one of "G-d's chosen," therefore he doesn't expect me to support all of "G-d's rules." But the conversation progressed. Eventually he told me that he feels these are, in his words, "idiotic decrees" from "some dude in the sky," and that it troubles him to hold such views when he sees how much pain it causes.

Do you see it?

When one sets aside the dogma and the doctrine, we can see each-other as people. We don't see dirty perverts and evil Bible-thumpers. We see human beings, with joys, sorrows, families, friends, hobbies....we see that we are all the same. And it shakes our safe little worlds when we realise this.

To spit such vitriol at anyone - ANYONE - whom one sees as a sinner accomplishes nothing. You will win no-one to Christ through malice. I don't care whether you've studied Leviticus for the past 25 years. I don't care about your PhD in the meaning of the word "arsenokoites" as used in the Tanakh. It is insignificant, it is so tiny, it is so useless compared to the eternal LOVE that is our Lord CHRIST. And by hurting His children, you are hurting Him.

Please, for the love of all that is good and righteous, stop preaching hatred in His most Holy Name!

Right on!

Edit: Grr. I can't rep you

You misunderstand me. But I am glad to have brought a smile to you today.

NeTrips, you make me smile every day I visit these boards.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

... But the fact that reparative therapy is so heavily promoted by Fundamentalist Christians and yourself, therapy that is designed to change something that you freely admit is not a sin in any way...

That doesn't fly - blurring lines between being tempted and implying the nature of the temptation is somehow acceptable or even neutral. That illusion capitalizes on the notion that a person isn't guilty of sin out of being just tempted, but when this blurred view is presented, the desire or temptation itself is not acknowledged to be wicked or apart from God's will - which Christian faith does outline. If someone resists or otherwise flees a temptation, great. But it doesn't make the nature of the temptation good, neutral or anything other than opposed to God.

 

[NeTrips]

This is utterly false. I hear that "love the sinner, hate the sin" one-liner in every thread in which this is raised. Ultimately, however, by the end of the thread the same people who preached this messge are throwing around words like "sodomite" and "pervert," spreading falsehoods and misinformation left and right. Those people are free to claim to love the "sinner," but those of us who don't take their words at face value see no love whatsoever.

Let's step away from the threads for a minute. A very dear friend of mine, who is Jewish and refers to Jesus as "just another false Moschiach," once told me, "we don't hate the attraction, we just dislike the action." This one sentence sent us spiraling into a thelogical argument up epic proportions. I asked my friend questions. And to him, I'm not just some random debate opponent on a message board with no name and no face. We're accountability partners, we're friends, we love and care for each-other. And so he wasn't afraid to be honest with me.

By the time I got too tired to continue talking and went to bed, he'd told me that he knew it was an irrational belief to hold. Because I was a nontheist at the time, he had started out telling me that I'm not under the same "spiritual slavery" as he is, and I'm not one of "G-d's chosen," therefore he doesn't expect me to support all of "G-d's rules." But the conversation progressed. Eventually he told me that he feels these are, in his words, "idiotic decrees" from "some dude in the sky," and that it troubles him to hold such views when he sees how much pain it causes.

Do you see it?

When one sets aside the dogma and the doctrine, we can see each-other as people. We don't see dirty perverts and evil Bible-thumpers. We see human beings, with joys, sorrows, families, friends, hobbies....we see that we are all the same. And it shakes our safe little worlds when we realise this.

To spit such vitriol at anyone - ANYONE - whom one sees as a sinner accomplishes nothing. You will win no-one to Christ through malice. I don't care whether you've studied Leviticus for the past 25 years. I don't care about your PhD in the meaning of the word "arsenokoites" as used in the Tanakh. It is insignificant, it is so tiny, it is so useless compared to the eternal LOVE that is our Lord CHRIST. And by hurting His children, you are hurting Him.

Please, for the love of all that is good and righteous, stop preaching hatred in His most Holy Name!

WF, I truely wish no evil upon you or any other person engaging in same gendered sex. I have familly members included in this group and i truely love them. Yet I do not shy away from speaking truth to them and their friends. I have pagan family members and likewise, I do not shy from speaking the truth to them either. As far as i can tell, my speaking truth to them has had no direct consequences on their decisions, but i will not be ashamed of the gospel. My family members, while probably sick of the message being repeated, in no way attack or assign hatred to the messenger. If only the same were true here.

 

[Ohioprof]

((((((Ohioprof))))))

I'm terribly sorry to hear about your dad. I wish you could have visited MA under happier circumstances. Even setting aside the gay marriage issue, it's an amazing place. I lived there for a few months, but I'd more back in an instant if I could. What part are you in?

Thanks. Western Mass.

 

[Ohioprof]

my sincere condolences on your father's passing. It's a tough housing market here right now, I hope the sale goes quickly.

Thanks. I have an interested buyer, but we have to come to an agreement about price.

 

[selfinflikted]

WF, I truely wish no evil upon you or any other person engaging in same gendered sex. I have familly members included in this group and i truely love them. Yet I do not shy away from speaking truth to them and their friends. I have pagan family members and likewise, I do not shy from speaking the truth to them either.

Really, I mean no disrespect when I say this but...

This is the problem in a nutshell. Live your life by your spiritual rules, and for pete's sake - keep it to yourself. Not everyone wants to hear that. Not everyone likes being told they are "sinners". Not everyone likes the wrath of hell being spewed at them constantly. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

As far as i can tell, my speaking truth to them has had no direct consequences on their decisions, but i will not be ashamed of the gospel.

This is "truth" to you. It is NOT a universal truth.

 

[.Sabre.]

WF, I truely wish no evil upon you or any other person engaging in same gendered sex. I have familly members included in this group and i truely love them. Yet I do not shy away from speaking truth to them and their friends. I have pagan family members and likewise, I do not shy from speaking the truth to them either. As far as i can tell, my speaking truth to them has had no direct consequences on their decisions, but i will not be ashamed of the gospel. My family members, while probably sick of the message being repeated, in no way attack or assign hatred to the messenger. If only the same were true here.

People here aren't hateful to you, they just get incensed and provoked--polemics and axe-grinding are synonymous, sadly. And if you get tired of repeating things to people, stop saying it--especially if they get tired of hearing it.

 

[selfinflikted]

People here aren't hateful to you, they just get incensed and provoked--polemics and axe-grinding are synonymous, sadly. And if you get tired of repeating things to people, stop saying it--especially if they get tired of hearing it.

Yes! Another winnar!

 

[Ramona]

WF, I truely wish no evil upon you or any other person engaging in same gendered sex. I have familly members included in this group and i truely love them. Yet I do not shy away from speaking truth to them and their friends. I have pagan family members and likewise, I do not shy from speaking the truth to them either. As far as i can tell, my speaking truth to them has had no direct consequences on their decisions, but i will not be ashamed of the gospel. My family members, while probably sick of the message being repeated, in no way attack or assign hatred to the messenger. If only the same were true here.

Just a nitpick: I'm not homosexual. I'm bisexual, and I happen to have abstained from all sex, hetero and lesbian, since I was 17. To imply that I currently engage in same-gender sex was a bit of a leap to make there.

I appreciate you clearing that up, but do you see how people will be mislead when you call people names like "pervert" and "sodomite"? Do tell the LGBT people you love that they are "perverts" and "sodomites"? Why do you tell people that here? I don't know you personally. I don't know how you are with your family. All I see is how you treat others here, and I'd be lying if I said that I thought it glorified a loving God at all.

I think everyone, myself included, could stand to remember that we are not interacting with dollies, screen-names, and avatars. We are interacting with human beings.

 

[SimplyMe]

That doesn't fly - blurring lines between being tempted and implying the nature of the temptation is somehow acceptable or even neutral. That illusion capitalizes on the notion that a person isn't guilty of sin out of being just tempted, but when this blurred view is presented, the desire or temptation itself is not acknowledged to be wicked or apart from God's will - which Christian faith does outline. If someone resists or otherwise flees a temptation, great. But it doesn't make the nature of the temptation good, neutral or anything other than opposed to God.

I'm trying to make sense of how this is opposed to what I said but I just can't. Maybe I'm missing something.

As you said, the desire or temptation is not wicked or apart from God's will -- so why is reparative therapy needed? What makes it so important to defend this type of therapy that we have entire threads on it? It is this dichotomy between the claim that homosexual desires is not a sin and the claims that such feelings are "unnatural" (as has often been spoken of here) -- particularly when reparative therapy operates under the idea that homosexual desires are abnormal and unhealthy -- that I'm pointing out.

The stated goals of reparative therapy are not to help people cope with temptation but, as Exodus states it, "recover from homosexuality". It is this type of mentality that makes the APA speak out against reparative therapy and makes the term "love the sinner" seem empty. In this case, as some posters here have witnessed, it is homosexuals being marginalized and not their actions.

And that's even assuming, as you believe, that it is a sin. You are aware that I, as a Christian, disagree with that assumption.

 

[NeTrips]

Really, I mean no disrespect when I say this but...

This is the problem in a nutshell. Live your life by your spiritual rules, and for pete's sake - keep it to yourself. Not everyone wants to hear that. Not everyone likes being told they are "sinners". Not everyone likes the wrath of hell being spewed at them constantly. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

Turn this around for just a moment and consider it from the perspective of one who finds the act sinful. Our children are being presented with other's beliefs that we feel are wrong and sinful, many cannot afford to "change the channel", they are basically being told that they need to embrace sin or at least tolerate it. In MA, we've been deluged with lawsuits and parades and protests for the last five years almost daily in the news and in the papers. Not everyone likes sinful actions being presented as acceptable. As long as the act is presented as OK we will be there to tell the truth that it is not. We will be labeled as bigots and haters, have our motives maligned, have our beliefs slandered, have our names and addresses made public, and our persons threatened, but that will not deter us.

If you insist on living your life in a manner that is sinful, as you suggested, at least keep it to yourself, if not, do not be shocked when you find opposition.

 

[Ohioprof]

Turn this around for just a moment and consider it from the perspective of one who finds the act sinful. Our children are being presented with other's beliefs that we feel are wrong and sinful, many cannot afford to "change the channel", they are basically being told that they need to embrace sin or at least tolerate it. In MA, we've been deluged with lawsuits and parades and protests for the last five years almost daily in the news and in the papers. Not everyone likes sinful actions being presented as acceptable. As long as the act is presented as OK we will be there to tell the truth that it is not. We will be labeled as bigots and haters, have our motives maligned, have our beliefs slandered, have our names and addresses made public, and our persons threatened, but that will not deter us.

If you insist on living your life in a manner that is sinful, as you suggested, at least keep it to yourself, if not, do not be shocked when you find opposition.

My father used to say, joking, "You have the right to your opinion, but I don't want to hear it. So shut up!"

It was always a joke, though. My dad listened to everyone and considered all viewpoints carefully.

 

[NeTrips]

Just a nitpick: I'm not homosexual. I'm bisexual, and I happen to have abstained from all sex, hetero and lesbian, since I was 17. To imply that I currently engage in same-gender sex was a bit of a leap to make there.

I apologize if I mis-spoke of you.

I appreciate you clearing that up, but do you see how people will be mislead when you call people names like "pervert" and "sodomite"? Do tell the LGBT people you love that they are "perverts" and "sodomites"? Why do you tell people that here?

I select my words to fit the demeanor of the dialog. There have been some respectful conversations here but this is not the norm of this site. (OhioProf and I have had some great conversation on another topic in which at least i learned much from her.) Once folks begin to assign hatred, begin name calling (bigot, homophobe, etc.), demean a person's faith, etc. the tone of the conversation shifts and no one should be shocked or feign surprise when the slights are returned. One generally reaps what they sow.

I think everyone, myself included, could stand to remember that we are not interacting with dollies, screen-names, and avatars. We are interacting with human beings.

quite true.

 

[selfinflikted]

Turn this around for just a moment and consider it from the perspective of one who finds the act sinful. Our children are being presented with other's beliefs that we feel are wrong and sinful, many cannot afford to "change the channel", they are basically being told that they need to embrace sin or at least tolerate it. In MA, we've been deluged with lawsuits and parades and protests for the last five years almost daily in the news and in the papers. Not everyone likes sinful actions being presented as acceptable. As long as the act is presented as OK we will be there to tell the truth that it is not. We will be labeled as bigots and haters, have our motives maligned, have our beliefs slandered, have our names and addresses made public, and our persons threatened, but that will not deter us.

If you insist on living your life in a manner that is sinful, as you suggested, at least keep it to yourself, if not, do not be shocked when you find opposition.

I assure you, our "in your face" attitude is completely reactionary. We didn't start this.

 

[NeTrips]

My father used to say, joking, "You have the right to your opinion, but I don't want to hear it. So shut up!"

It was always a joke, though. My dad listened to everyone and considered all viewpoints carefully.

He sounds like a wise man with a good sense of humor. Sorry again for your loss.

 

[NeTrips]

I assure you, our "in your face" attitude is completely reactionary. We didn't start this.

If you are talking about here on CF, then i would have to agree. This was a Christian site once and I am sure your pov was not predominant at that time. Now it appears the pendulum is at the other end of its path.

 

[.Sabre.]

If you are talking about here on CF, then i would have to agree. This was a Christian site at once and I am sure your pov was not predominant at that time. Now it appears the pendulum is at the other end of its path.

You're assuming that this is no longer a Christian site.

I assure you, it still is.