Busting the myth that gays can't change....

[silentreader]

Considering what we've seen so far, the answer seems to be a pretty clear "nyet."

yes i know, true wisdom exists in the secular world filled with moral relativism. lol. i will take the foolishness in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 1:
19For it is written,

(AG) "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20(AH) Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?(AI) Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For(AJ) Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ(AK) crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ(AL) the power of God and(AM) the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[KomissarSteve]

so you would rather believe a poll then the personal testimony of someone living a joyous life.

Yes, of course I do. I can't verify or falsify the evidence you present, because I don't know the guy, and anyway it's logically impossible to prove a negative. So logically, I'm required to write off your anecdotal evidence and ask for either a scientific study that has demonstrated that this particular individual has, in fact, changed his sexual orientation, or at the very least a study which demonstrates that anybody is capable of changing their sexual orientation. It's called "being objective." That's just the way it works; those of us interested in engaging in a rational debate will always consider scientifically-verifiable, documented, non-anecdotal evidence to be much more valid than pure anecdote.

this is no anecdote, this is reality.

I dispute this claim - not that I believe the person was lying; I simply don't believe that he knew what he was talking about.

i see the man joyous and happy a few times a week. but i know, he is just lying to himself. he will come to his senses someday right?

Probably, considering all the would-be "ex-gays" who have returned to the homosexual lifestyle.

 

[KomissarSteve]

yes i know, true wisdom exists in the secular world filled with moral relativism. lol. i will take the foolishness in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 1:
19For it is written,

(AG) "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."
20(AH) Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?(AI) Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For(AJ) Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ(AK) crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ(AL) the power of God and(AM) the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Yeah, that's nice. You go ahead and misuse that verse to assert that objectively-observed evidence is less-valuable than pure anecdote.

Seriously, do you see why moderates and liberals find social conservatives to be so ignorant and anti-intellectual? Your post here that I've quoted is a great example.

 

[levi501]

i guess false witness is ok if you wink at me. i said scientifically proven.

That's what I mean as well... it's good that you can admit that.

i, unlike you, do believe a homosexual when they tell me it causes them harm.

I may believe they have a problem, but I deffinitely disagree homosexuality is it.

stating something as fact is making an argument. and i quote:

"I agree with the OP, in that it's a myth that people can't change. However, the percentage of people that can and do are so miniscule that it's pointless to discuss."

That's not a fact. It's my opinion that it's pointless. Seems like you're struggling with what's a claim and what's an opinion.

 

[silentreader]

Yes, of course I do. I can't verify or falsify the evidence you present, because I don't know the guy, and anyway it's logically impossible to prove a negative. So logically, I'm required to write off your anecdotal evidence and ask for either a scientific study that has demonstrated that this particular individual has, in fact, changed his sexual orientation, or at the very least a study which demonstrates that anybody is capable of changing their sexual orientation. It's called "being objective." That's just the way it works; those of us interested in engaging in a rational debate will always consider scientifically-verifiable, documented, non-anecdotal evidence to be much more valid than pure anecdote.



I dispute this claim - not that I believe the person was lying; I simply don't believe that he knew what he was talking about.



Probably, considering all the would-be "ex-gays" who have returned to the homosexual lifestyle.

thanks for answering honestly. i am so glad i have not put my faith in polls and double-blind studies and instead have chosen to believe people based on their testimony and the fruit of their actions. fyi, i am an elec engineer and appreciate scientific studies when they can apply. the studies you desire about homosexuality are nothing more than opinion polls taken over a period of time. no different from anecdotal evidence.

 

[KomissarSteve]

thanks for answering honestly. i am so glad i have not put my faith in polls and double-blind studies and instead have chosen to believe people based on their testimony and the fruit of their actions. fyi, i am an elec engineer and appreciate scientific studies when they can apply. the studies you desire about homosexuality are nothing more than opinion polls taken over a period of time. no different from anecdotal evidence.

Mmmmm, sorry to burst your bubble, buuuuuuuuuut...science is not on your side on this one.

I'm glad you appreciated my honesty; could you perhaps show the rest of us the same degree of honesty that I've demonstrated by admitting that objectivity doesn't particularly matter to you in this debate, and that you're more interested in believing what you want to believe, regardless of how heavily it's contradicted by a mountain of evidence?

 

[silentreader]

That's what I mean as well... it's good that you can admit that.
I may believe they have a problem, but I deffinitely disagree homosexuality is it.

That's not a fact. It's my opinion that it's pointless. Seems like you're struggling with what's a claim and what's an opinion.

i guess you don't understand that an opinion can be a claim of fact. here is a definition of claim:

assert or affirm strongly; state to be true or existing

since you asserted that it should not even be discussed, i would say you affirm strongly that your opinion is true...hence it is a claim.

 

[silentreader]

Mmmmm, sorry to burst your bubble, buuuuuuuuuut...science is not on your side on this one.

I'm glad you appreciated my honesty; could you perhaps show the rest of us the same degree of honesty that I've demonstrated by admitting that objectivity doesn't particularly matter to you in this debate, and that you're more interested in believing what you want to believe, regardless of how heavily it's contradicted by a mountain of evidence?

burst my bubble? why don't you point out one thing on your website that disproves anything i have said in this thread. pls be specific, show what i claimed and what evidence contradicts that claim. btw, you have just demonstrated that you can google the APA. congrats.

 

[AuraTwilight]

Anyone got anything that doesn't boil down to "the Bible SEZ!" to explain why God has such a problem with homosexuality?

"The Koran SEZ!"

 

[KomissarSteve]

burst my bubble? why don't you point out one thing on your website that disproves anything i have said in this thread.

The scientific consensus says that human sexual orientation cannot be changed. That disproves your claim that it can be changed, unless you have scientifically-verifiable, tested, non-anecdotal evidence indicating otherwise.

btw, you have just demonstrated that you can google the APA. congrats.

I don't recall asking for a medal for it...

 

[KomissarSteve]

"The Koran SEZ!"

Oh you!

 

[silentreader]

The scientific consensus says that human sexual orientation cannot be changed. That disproves your claim that it can be changed, unless you have scientifically-verifiable, tested, non-anecdotal evidence indicating otherwise.

thanks for showng that you are not actually reading my posts. you are just responding like a pavlov dog when the words homosexual and God are mentioned in the same sentence. i didn't say homosexual orientation is changed, it is part of the fallen state of man due to original sin. i said God can provide freedom from the bondage of that fallen nature. one's willpower is not enough since we are imperefect. i believe it take's the power of God, specifically taking one's thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ, to be free.

 

[silentreader]

Yeah, that's nice. You go ahead and misuse that verse to assert that objectively-observed evidence is less-valuable than pure anecdote.

pls provide an exegesis that shows I misused it.

Seriously, do you see why moderates and liberals find social conservatives to be so ignorant and anti-intellectual? Your post here that I've quoted is a great example.

attempted insults aside, what information were you trying to exchange in the above sentence?

 

[KomissarSteve]

thanks for showng that you are not actually reading my posts. you are just responding like a pavlov dog when the words homosexual and God are mentioned in the same sentence. i didn't say homosexual orientation is changed,

As we say on 4chan, "O RLY?!"

IN-teresting...and yet you go on to say...

it is part of the fallen state of man due to original sin. i said God can provide freedom from the bondage of that fallen nature. one's willpower is not enough since we are imperfect. i believe it take's the power of God, specifically taking one's thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ, to be free.

In other words, you're saying that sexual orientation CAN be changed - it just requires God's Almighty power to achieve. Nice one. Yeah, I'm clearly not reading your posts.

Now, to be fair, I'm inclined to agree that it would take God's help for one to change sexual orientation. Only problem is - I don't believe He does that. Why? Because you haven't provided me with any evidence that these would-be "ex-gays" actually DO change their sexual orientation. And no, their "testimony" is not satisfactory evidence. If you want to be taken seriously in this discussion, you're going to have to provide me with the results of a scientific test which indicates that they no longer respond to homosexual stimuli as a homosexual would.

 

[silentreader]

In other words, you're saying that sexual orientation CAN be changed - it just requires God's Almighty power to achieve. Nice one. Yeah, I'm clearly not reading your posts.

nothing is impossible for my God. but that is not what I was saying. i was saying they are free from the bondage of that sinful nature. they still might be homosexual and have urges (not sin) but are able to overcome through the power of God's word. aren't you Christian? don't you believe in the power of God's word? or does it only work for the small stuff like a new mercedes?

Now, to be fair, I'm inclined to agree that it would take God's help for one to change sexual orientation. Only problem is - I don't believe He does that. Why? Because you haven't provided me with any evidence that these would-be "ex-gays" actually DO change their sexual orientation. And no, their "testimony" is not satisfactory evidence. If you want to be taken seriously in this discussion, you're going to have to provide me with the results of a scientific test which indicates that they no longer respond to homosexual stimuli as a homosexual would.

this is all based on your idea that freedom from bondage to homosexuality requires one not to be a homosexual. just not true.

 

[KomissarSteve]

nothing is impossible for my God.

Nor for mine, but that doesn't mean He necessarily DOES "just anything."

but that is not what I was saying. i was saying they are free from the bondage of that sinful nature. they still might be homosexual and have urges (not sin) but are able to overcome through the power of God's word.

This argument has been proposed before many times, and all rational minds have consistently rejected it. The idea that God would create someone with a natural attraction to someone of the same sex, and then require that person to damage him- or herself psychologically and emotionally by suppressing those urges that are intrinsically part of him or her is not the work of an Almighty, Loving God - that seems to be more the work of a trickster deity conceived through the minds of our animist ancestors.

aren't you Christian? don't you believe in the power of God's word? or does it only work for the small stuff like a new mercedes?

That and the killing of fetuses. Nothing makes me happier than to see a fetus get aborted. That's why I support Roe v. Wade, after all.

this is all based on your idea that freedom from bondage to homosexuality requires one not to be a homosexual. just not true.

"There can be no morality without freedom." -C.G. Jung. I'm not entirely sure what this perceived "bondage to homosexuality" is, by the way. Are you sure you're not unwittingly conflating homosexuality with sex addiction?

 

[SimplyMe]

i don't see anything different between what the Bible says and what I believe. i appreciated our discussion though.

So basically you can't present a reasoned argument that the Bible says what you claim beyond, "because I say so" and "because that is the way I choose to read it".

i was referring to the secualr left which is the overriding voice of liberalism. i will try to be more clear next time.

Again, this is a straw man created by the religious, mostly Fundamentalist right.

they would be wrong since it is clearly Biblical.

Again, only if you proof-text and use logical fallacies. The evidence is not on your side.

attractions to a person of the same sex are not a sin.

So why do homosexuals need to change their orientations? Why do we have reparative therapy groups teaching the evils of being homosexual? The APA has no problem with therapy to control sexual urges and drive. From your own statements, you appear to be saying that reparative therapy is unnecessary.

believing it is ok for people to act on those attractions is sin.

So you keep claiming. The Bible also talks about the evils of heterosexuality yet we don't have reparative therapy to cure people from the evil "heterosexual lifestyle".

 

[IzzyPop]

nothing is impossible for my God. but that is not what I was saying. i was saying they are free from the bondage of that sinful nature. they still might be homosexual and have urges (not sin) but are able to overcome through the power of God's word. aren't you Christian? don't you believe in the power of God's word? or does it only work for the small stuff like a new mercedes?

So they are still attracted to people of the same sex and they cannot act on it? What kind of loving God does that? That is horrible and sadistic!

Flip that around for a sec. I am going to step out on a limb here and assume that you are straight. Lets pretend that you can look at women, are attracted to women, but can NEVER touch or have a romantic relationship with them.

I'm not saying that if someone wants to change we should not let them, but why should we make someone who doesn't want to? And why should we look down on two people that love each other?

this is all based on your idea that freedom from bondage to homosexuality requires one not to be a homosexual. just not true.

Because the alternative is a forced celebecy. I would not wish that on my worst enemy.

 

[Ohioprof]

thanks for showng that you are not actually reading my posts. you are just responding like a pavlov dog when the words homosexual and God are mentioned in the same sentence. i didn't say homosexual orientation is changed, it is part of the fallen state of man due to original sin. i said God can provide freedom from the bondage of that fallen nature. one's willpower is not enough since we are imperefect. i believe it take's the power of God, specifically taking one's thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ, to be free.

You are making huge assumptions here. I don't want to be "free" of who I am. I am happy being gay. Perhaps you'd do better to try to solve real social problems instead of imaginary ones. Being gay is not a sin, not a problem. It's just a characteristic of some people.

Telling gay people we can be "free" of being gay is like telling a left-handed person they can be "free" of being left-handed. It makes no sense.

 

[Ohioprof]

nothing is impossible for my God. but that is not what I was saying. i was saying they are free from the bondage of that sinful nature. they still might be homosexual and have urges (not sin) but are able to overcome through the power of God's word. aren't you Christian? don't you believe in the power of God's word? or does it only work for the small stuff like a new mercedes?



this is all based on your idea that freedom from bondage to homosexuality requires one not to be a homosexual. just not true.

There is no such thing as "bondage to homosexuality."