Busting the myth that gays can't change....

[SimplyMe]

freedom from the bondage that comes with homosexuality. fyi, just because I don't believe homosexuality to be ok doesn't mean i am judging anyone. i don't believe polygamy to be ok either. there are lots of things God tells me are unnatural and sin. but He also clearly tells me to love the sinner and hate the sin. of course, liberals will tell me that is impossible.

At least this time you qualified it by what you believe God tells you. We were talking about what the Bible actually says here.

My biggest problem with this post is your claim about liberals. You seem to be trying to insinuate that Liberal is incompatible with Christian, or that there are no conservative gays. Both would be false. There are many conservatives that may tell you it's not possible to love the sinner hate the sin. In your case, since in the post I last quoted you use a straw man claiming to leave a "lifestyle" they must leave homosexuality, it would appear you do have problems separating the sinner from the sin. I thought you had claimed to believe that gay sex is a sin, not simply having attractions to a person of the same sex?

 

[levi501]

strawman.

You obviously don't know what a strawman is.
You have the burden of proof here.

it doesn't have to have scientifically proven harm.

It does if you are trying to compare it to alcoholism which is proven to be detrimental to a person.

many homosexuals want to change and be free from the lifestyle. that is all that is required.

Overwelming majority of them don't though. However you're arguing an argument I never made. If a homosexual feels he needs to change, as mentally unhealthy as I think it is, he can try for all I care.

so i ask the question again...is it just percentages that determine what is important?

I have no idea what this has to do with anything I've said. As I said, I suspect you're arguing against something I never said.

 

[silentreader]

At least this time you qualified it by what you believe God tells you. We were talking about what the Bible actually says here.

i don't see anything different between what the Bible says and what I believe. i appreciated our discussion though.

My biggest problem with this post is your claim about liberals. You seem to be trying to insinuate that Liberal is incompatible with Christian, or that there are no conservative gays.

i was referring to the secualr left which is the overriding voice of liberalism. i will try to be more clear next time.

Both would be false. There are many conservatives that may tell you it's not possible to love the sinner hate the sin.

they would be wrong since it is clearly Biblical.

In your case, since in the post I last quoted you use a straw man claiming to leave a "lifestyle" they must leave homosexuality, it would appear you do have problems separating the sinner from the sin. I thought you had claimed to believe that gay sex is a sin, not simply having attractions to a person of the same sex?

attractions to a person of the same sex are not a sin. believing it is ok for people to act on those attractions is sin.

 

[silentreader]

It does if you are trying to compare it to alcoholism which is proven to be detrimental to a person.

nowhere in the OP does it state (nor in common sense) does the need for change need to be due to scientifically proven harm. it is you who created the strawman by inserting that into the argument.

Overwelming majority of them don't though.

so it is statistics, thx.

However you're arguing an argument I never made. If a homosexual feels he needs to change, as mentally unhealthy as I think it is, he can try for all I care.

you said discussing this small percentage of people (< 3%) is not worth it. i guess what you really mean is you have deemed their desire to be free unworthy of discussion.

 

[levi501]

nowhere in the OP does it state (nor in common sense) does the need for change need to be due to scientifically proven harm. it is you who created the strawman by inserting that into the argument.

You're moving the goal posts.
This wasn't addressing the OP but rather your false comparison to alcohol.
BTW - misrepresenting a person's post reeks of false witnessing.

so it is statistics, thx.

you're welcome.

you said discussing this small percentage of people (< 3%) is not worth it. i guess what you really mean is you have deemed their desire to be free unworthy of discussion.

Go figure, you misunderstood. I meant that since a miniscule percentage can/do/want to change, that this is hardly worth discussing as a common struggle for homosexuals. If a few feel they need to be healed from homosexuality, whatever, but this isn't inidicative of most homosexuals.

 

[SimplyMe]

i don't see anything different between what the Bible says and what I believe. i appreciated our discussion though.

You are free to believe what you will.

i was referring to the secualr left which is the overriding voice of liberalism. i will try to be more clear next time.

Straw man, I don't see where the "secular left" is the overriding voice of liberalism. It's a straw man created by conservative, typically Fundamentalist, Christians to rally their base. Every objective study of US politics shows their is no truth to it, especially considering 90+% of lawmakers claim to be Christian.

they would be wrong since it is clearly Biblical.

Except, as I showed in the other thread, this is false. You are free to believe otherwise but the original texts do not support you.

attractions to a person of the same sex are not a sin. believing it is ok for people to act on those attractions is sin.

Which is why claiming that homosexuals need to change their orientation or that there is some mythical "homosexual lifestyle" are unsupportable based on Christian beliefs. And why it would make you appear to hate the sinner when you try to claim those falsehoods as truth.

 

[Argent]

Care to provide a source for the claim that there can be change from heterosexual to homosexual?
Just to make sure we are not dealing with strawmen here.

Dont' drop the soap!!!!!!

 

[Waiting for the Verdict]

The original studies that claimed change were possible were even worse. Even though the ex-gay organizations were picking out who had changed, they could only find 11 out of 800 who had changed, 2 of whom were the people doing the study. And those people ended up leaving the study, acknowledging their homosexuality, and becoming gay activists. And lets not even talk about the Cameron family, who promulgated some of the most vile stereotypes about gays ever invented. Nor New Hope ministries in New York City, which according to their own leader's testimony, casts demons out of people's anuses. I'm sorry, that's screwy (One Nation Under God, DVD, Tanya Erzen Straight to Jesus).

And in case any of you rightists want to quote Warren Throckmorton, feel free. I can personally vouch that he is no more respectable than the other reparative therapists, as he helped get me kicked out of Grove City College for the terrible sin of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

Ah conversion therapists, got to love 'em.

 

[silentreader]

You're moving the goal posts.
This wasn't addressing the OP but rather your false comparison to alcohol.

the comparison is valid. you made it invalid because you tied in the 'scientifically proven' legality.

BTW - misrepresenting a person's post reeks of false witnessing.

i did not such thing.

Go figure, you misunderstood. I meant that since a miniscule percentage can/do/want to change, that this is hardly worth discussing as a common struggle for homosexuals. If a few feel they need to be healed from homosexuality, whatever, but this isn't inidicative of most homosexuals.

the problem with your argument is that you get to define what percentage is meaningful. it is an subjective opinion on what constitutes worth.

 

[silentreader]

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You are free to believe what you will.

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Straw man, I don't see where the "secular left" is the overriding voice of liberalism. It's a straw man created by conservative, typically Fundamentalist, Christians to rally their base. Every objective study of US politics shows their is no truth to it, especially considering 90+% of lawmakers claim to be Christian.

i can't help if you don't see it. the liberal movement is dominated by relative moralism rooted in secular wisdom. the claim to be Christian is always misleading since people identify themselves as Christian and then, when questioned further, admit they have not taken Christ as their personal Savior. in essence, they went to church a few times and are spiritual.

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Except, as I showed in the other thread, this is false. You are free to believe otherwise but the original texts do not support you.

actually they do.

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Which is why claiming that homosexuals need to change their orientation or that there is some mythical "homosexual lifestyle" are unsupportable based on Christian beliefs. And why it would make you appear to hate the sinner when you try to claim those falsehoods as truth.

there is a homosexual lifestyle. it is living a life believing homosexual acts or unions are not sin. that is all there is to my opinion. notice i am not going into any other criteria, just one's believe that homosexual acts or unions are ok in the eyes of God. that in no way forces me to hate the sinner. you want this to be the case so you can claim persecution but it is just not true.

 

[IzzyPop]

there is a homosexual lifestyle. it is living a life believing homosexual acts or unions are not sin. that is all there is to my opinion. notice i am not going into any other criteria, just one's believe that homosexual acts or unions are ok in the eyes of God. that in no way forces me to hate the sinner. you want this to be the case so you can claim persecution but it is just not true.

Wow. So I live a homosexual lifestyle by that definition. And I live with a woman whom I married. I have never had a sexual encounter with a man. Learn something new every day.

 

[silentreader]

Wow. So I live a homosexual lifestyle by that definition. And I live with a woman whom I married. I have never had a sexual encounter with a man. Learn something new every day.

it was in reference to people attracted to the same sex. sorry i need to be more clear. the whole point i was trying to make was that homosexual urges are not sin. you are just endorsing sin.

 

[wanderingone]

It's generally refered to as "coming out" or "embracing their homosexuality" when a person who has lived as a heterosexual changes and enters into a homosexual lifestyle.

"Coming out" doesn't mean someone CHANGED their orientation. It just means they don't have a heart attack anymore when their same sex partner answers the phone at home or when their boss sees them give their same sex partner a kiss goodbye at the train....

 

[levi501]

the comparison is valid. you made it invalid because you tied in the 'scientifically proven' legality.

I'm glad you agree there's no proof that homosexuality is detrimental to a person.

the problem with your argument is that you get to define what percentage is meaningful. it is an subjective opinion on what constitutes worth.

haha - when did I ever say it wasn't my opinion? I wasn't making an argument.

 

[silentreader]

I'm glad you agree there's no proof that homosexuality is detrimental to a person.

i guess false witness is ok if you wink at me. i said scientifically proven. i, unlike you, do believe a homosexual when they tell me it causes them harm.

haha - when did I ever say it wasn't my opinion? I wasn't making an argument.

stating something as fact is making an argument. and i quote:

"I agree with the OP, in that it's a myth that people can't change. However, the percentage of people that can and do are so miniscule that it's pointless to discuss."

 

[KomissarSteve]

i guess false witness is ok if you wink at me. i said scientifically proven. i, unlike you, do believe a homosexual when they tell me it causes them harm.

Anecdotal evidence, at best - and I imagine that those "homosexuals" who you cite as saying that their lifestyle causes them harm can be counted among the would-be "ex-gays."

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Anyone got anything that doesn't boil down to "the Bible SEZ!" to explain why God has such a problem with homosexuality?

 

[KomissarSteve]

Anyone got anything that doesn't boil down to "the Bible SEZ!" to explain why God has such a problem with homosexuality?

Considering what we've seen so far, the answer seems to be a pretty clear "nyet."

 

[silentreader]

Anecdotal evidence, at best - and I imagine that those "homosexuals" who you cite as saying that their lifestyle causes them harm can be counted among the would-be "ex-gays."

so you would rather believe a poll then the personal testimony of someone living a joyous life. this is no anecdote, this is reality. i see the man joyous and happy a few times a week. but i know, he is just lying to himself. he will come to his senses someday right?

 

[selfinflikted]

grr