Breaking the Sword of Islam

[Philothei]

Muslims have respectable scholars who are well versed in the Quran and hadith and their interpretations are the ones that we follow. Hence, the reason why I said earlier "Muslims do not interprete the Quran as they like".

You have not brought forth any evidence of that happening... The only places that Islam is doing well is an academic setting. Otherwise I am not convienced that "mulsims do not interprete the Quaran as they like" talk. Actually the fact that each Immam CAN interprete it the way he wants gives me the impression that there is no much those "peaceful" mulsims can do to stop him... It must be that if you 'do not like what imam teaches" you just go to another iman that you seem to "like"... so the problem with "interpretation" has nothing to do if it is valid or not orthodox or not rather is a personal matter and style that is completely acceptable by the certain congregation... If interpretation was so important ...then there would be strict rules that would forbit the "personal" interpretation on Koran.... and there is none so this "theory of right interpretation" is just in the Academia ONLY... and not actual.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Ha... You do not need a Pope. You have Imams...Your problem is that you do not have a teaching about excommunication...

Right. Unlike your religion maybe, we cannot just declare a person Non Muslim unless that person openly made that claim.

what about Futwwas? are they proclamation of killing someone who is an apostate? How come you "skiped" that? Why would the apostaltes not having the same priveledges? That is proof that you discriminate against non-mulsims...and ex-muslims.

You mean 'Fatwa'? That is usually issued by the Mufti or a religious council. While Muslim scholars agreed that the issue of apostates should not be taken lightly, they differ in the penalty imposed on the apostates.

Why apostates should be given the same privileges (in an Islamic country)? As a Muslim, we are required to pay zakat, which is a tithe, which are then distributed to the poor or in the advancement of Islam. The beneficieries are mainly the Muslims from Muslim monies. It will not be fair for an apostate to receive the disbursement of zakat money. This is not discrimination.

Relying on interpretation would not help any... You have certain tenets in your faith that do not allow you to live in peace among others. period.

Have you been to Malaysia or Singapore. You will find that the next door neighbor of a Muslim could be a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist.

My good friend is a Christian, a staunch Christian, and I have no problem working with him. (He followed me to Friday prayer this afternoon not to be a Muslim but to see how Muslims pray).

In my many years of being a Muslim, I have never come across our imams telling us to chop off the infidels.

Education can be dangerous depending how one uses it...for good or bad purpose....

It is only through education and the grace of God that we can be a better person.

 

[Erfan777]

Right. Unlike your religion maybe, we cannot just declare a person Non Muslim unless that person openly made that claim.


You mean 'Fatwa'? That is usually issued by the Mufti or a religious council. While Muslim scholars agreed that the issue of apostates should not be taken lightly, they differ in the penalty imposed on the apostates.

Why apostates should be given the same privileges (in an Islamic country)? As a Muslim, we are required to pay zakat, which is a tithe, which are then distributed to the poor or in the advancement of Islam. The beneficieries are mainly the Muslims from Muslim monies. It will not be fair for an apostate to receive the disbursement of zakat money. This is not discrimination.


Have you been to Malaysia or Singapore. You will find that the next door neighbor of a Muslim could be a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist.

My good friend is a Christian, a staunch Christian, and I have no problem working with him. (He followed me to Friday prayer this afternoon not to be a Muslim but to see how Muslims pray).

In my many years of being a Muslim, I have never come across our imams telling us to chop off the infidels.


It is only through education and the grace of God that we can be a better person.

I know an Imam who used to say that the non-believers are like pigs, who are fed on earth and slaughtered and burned in Hell. He also used the term son of dogs and son of swines for Jews and Christians. He said, muslim shouldn't be friend with non-believers. He used to say how non-believers head would be chopped during war in a very amusing tone (like he is blood-thirsty). Oh, and he used to give this kind of lessons to 11 year old.
I am sure the same thing is used to learn in various madrassas, mosque in pakistan, afghanistan, palestine etc, where these jihadist and suicide bombers are forming nowadays.

 

[Rasta]

Secundulus makes a good point... Why not persecuting those who misrepresent your faith in general but ONLY those who are apostates?

Actually, it's a horrible point. It is rife with typical generalizations. Not saying it suprises me, but still ignorant. It presumes that the members here persecute apostates.

Do either of you know this to be fact? No? Cool. Let's move on. . . .

In addition to this faulty method of cognotive processing that you may term "thinking", do you have a working definition for what the posters here (Muslims if you are having difficulty following) consider misusing scripture?

 

[Rasta]

I know an Imam who used to say that the non-believers are like pigs, who are fed on earth and slaughtered and burned in Hell.

That's no different than saying certain sexual orientations are analogous to a "bundle of sticks". Do the math if you are able. Also certain Christians believe that everyone who is non-Christian burns in hell for ever and ever and ever.

You just don't call them pigs. . . . . . Did you have a point here?

He also used the term son of dogs and son of swines for Jews and Christians. He said, muslim shouldn't be friend with non-believers. He used to say how non-believers head would be chopped during war in a very amusing tone (like he is blood-thirsty). Oh, and he used to give this kind of lessons to 11 year old.
I am sure the same thing is used to learn in various madrassas, mosque in pakistan, afghanistan, palestine etc, where these jihadist and suicide bombers are forming nowadays.

I've heard of this guy who says the god hates america and they protest at the funerals of Christian soldiers who died in service.

Does that mean all Christians are like him?

Your reasoning is weak and unifnormed at best.

 

[Luzeiro]

Actually, it's a horrible point. It is rife with typical generalizations. Not saying it suprises me, but still ignorant. It presumes that the members here persecute apostates.

Do either of you know this to be fact? No? Cool. Let's move on. . . .

In addition to this faulty method of cognotive processing that you may term "thinking", do you have a working definition for what the posters here (Muslims if you are having difficulty following) consider misusing scripture?

What is 'cognotive'?

 

[Futuwwa]

Nine pages later, has the Sword of Islam been broken yet? No, that's what I thought, finest Damascene steel

 

[Rasta]

What is 'cognotive'?

Conotive refers to the brain.

 

[Philothei]

That's no different than saying certain sexual orientations are analogous to a "bundle of sticks". Do the math if you are able. Also certain Christians believe that everyone who is non-Christian burns in hell for ever and ever and ever.

Bringing up Christians to 'support" mulsim claims one more time....hehehe...Pleeeeeeease

You just don't call them pigs. . . . . . Did you have a point here?

We did not he did....

I've heard of this guy who says the god hates america and they protest at the funerals of Christian soldiers who died in service.

Does that mean all Christians are like him?

Your reasoning is weak and unifnormed at best

.

Your argument is again judging the Muslims by "compairing them to Christians... Thus it is weak.

We are not compairing here Islam with Chritianity... What the poster said was the the Islamic religion has a violent message that is allowed and tolerated. It was confirmed also by Islam Mulia that such groups or individuals cannot be "excommunicated" or even "stoped" as we could here in America due to our laws .... In their countries those individuals are allowed to influence the youth and thus exercise their "freedom" to roam and terrorize without any restrictions....

 

[Philothei]

You mean 'Fatwa'? That is usually issued by the Mufti or a religious council. While Muslim scholars agreed that the issue of apostates should not be taken lightly, they differ in the penalty imposed on the apostates.

Why apostates should be given the same privileges (in an Islamic country)? As a Muslim, we are required to pay zakat, which is a tithe, which are then distributed to the poor or in the advancement of Islam. The beneficieries are mainly the Muslims from Muslim monies. It will not be fair for an apostate to receive the disbursement of zakat money. This is not discrimination.

Then how can you claim calling Islam a religion of peace and love? Since it is ONLY concerned about the well-being of its own and not of the others. The infidels are mere "enemies" to Islam who should be "converted" at any price..... or be eliminated so that Islam can be established. It merely sounds like a religion of violence and force spiritual and physical no doubt about it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Conotive refers to the brain.

From the greek word #1106?

1 Corin 1:10 I am beseeching yet of ye brothers! thru the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ that the same ye may be saying all, and no may be among ye schisms/divisions, yet ye may having been equipped in the same Mind/noi <3563 and the same purpose/gnwmh <1106> [#1106 used in Reve 17:13, 17]

Reve 17:13 These one-purpose/gnwmhn <1106> are having, and the power and authority of them to the beast they are giving 17 For the God gives into the hearts of them to do the purpose/gnwmhn <1106> of Him and to do one purpose/gnwmhn <1106> and to give the kingdom of them to the wild-beast until shall be being finished [*finish] the Words [*declarations] of the God.

1106. gnome gno'-may from 1097; cognition, i.e. (subjectively) opinion, or (objectively) resolve (counsel, consent, etc.):--advice, + agree, judgment, mind, purpose, will.
1097. ginosko ghin-oce'-ko a prolonged form of a primary verb; to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as follow, with others not thus clearly expressed):--allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

 

[Catherineanne]

Nine pages later, has the Sword of Islam been broken yet? No, that's what I thought, finest Damascene steel

You have said it.

And those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

 

[Catherineanne]

Why apostates should be given the same privileges (in an Islamic country)? As a Muslim, we are required to pay zakat, which is a tithe, which are then distributed to the poor or in the advancement of Islam. The beneficieries are mainly the Muslims from Muslim monies. It will not be fair for an apostate to receive the disbursement of zakat money. This is not discrimination.

Certainly it is discrimination, and of a very nasty kind, imo. It is an attempt to starve people into faith, which is abhorrent.

Christian Aid is not given only to Christians, neither is it given with any strings attached.

If any form of Islamic aid is given only to Moslems, leaving others to starve, then it does not count as righteousness, or as alms, with God. It counts as giving within the family, which is the same thing as keeping to yourself. Such 'giving' is not recorded by the recorder of good deeds, but by the recorder of evil.

Unless Moslems give alms to those who are most in need, irrespective of their faith, or anything else, then they are omitting to fulfill one of the pillars of Islam. And without one pillar, the edifice falls.

 

[Catherineanne]

I know an Imam who used to say that the non-believers are like pigs, who are fed on earth and slaughtered and burned in Hell. He also used the term son of dogs and son of swines for Jews and Christians. He said, muslim shouldn't be friend with non-believers. He used to say how non-believers head would be chopped during war in a very amusing tone (like he is blood-thirsty). Oh, and he used to give this kind of lessons to 11 year old.

I have heard equally bad things said of Moslems by non Moslems.

It would not trouble me to be called a pig - pigs are very intelligent animals, and their biology is similar to ours in many ways, apparently, (I am no expert on these things.) But if a Moslem were to decide to call me a pig, then he, and his entire family, become pigs too, because all of mankind is one species, and we are all siblings.

Far worse, all of mankind is made in the image of God, so his swinish metaphor extends to the Almighty. Can the image of God, even in its lowest representation, be compared with a pig? Will God forgive such blasphemy?

This might, therefore, be a behaviour to avoid.

When we give a perjorative label to any other people, it is most certainly true that this label says as much about us as about them. All of mankind is made in the image of God, and all of mankind is, therefore, perfectly and wonderfully made. We may not behave perfectly and wonderfully, but that is another matter.

Humans are not pigs. Those who are closest to swinish behaviour are those who use such labels of their brothers and sisters.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You have said it.

And those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Yes, the Lord Jesus mentioned that a few times

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5617198

Luke 21:24 And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive/aicmalwtisqhsontai <163> (5701) into all the nations and Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations. [Jeremiah 15:2]

Reve 13:10 If any into captivity/aicmalwsian <161> into captivity/aicmalwsian <161> he is going away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints [Luke 21:24]

 

[Bookofknowledge]

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Try islamicboard.com

Why, to get our threads locked up and shut down? To get death threats? There would be no ministering, there would be always quarreling...

 

[Islam_mulia]

Certainly it is discrimination, and of a very nasty kind, imo. It is an attempt to starve people into faith, which is abhorrent.

Christian Aid is not given only to Christians, neither is it given with any strings attached.

Is this hyprocricy or what?

The Islamic zakat and the Christian tithe are not very far apart. Other than the amount paid, the Christian tithe is an amount given to your Lord (1 Cor 16:2, 2 Cor 9:7). How the amount is divided between the Church and the ministries is one question, but generally Christians agreed that the money is for the advancement of Christianity!

If any form of Islamic aid is given only to Moslems, leaving others to starve, then it does not count as righteousness, or as alms, with God. It counts as giving within the family, which is the same thing as keeping to yourself. Such 'giving' is not recorded by the recorder of good deeds, but by the recorder of evil.

Is not the Christian tithe given to the poor under the veil of Christian evangelization?

Unless Moslems give alms to those who are most in need, irrespective of their faith, or anything else, then they are omitting to fulfill one of the pillars of Islam. And without one pillar, the edifice falls.

I have no problem if Muslim zakat is given to Muslims who need them most.

I am disgusted if Christian tithe is given to non-Christians on the hidden agenda that they were to convert the heathens.

 

[Islam_mulia]

I have heard equally bad things said of Moslems by non Moslems.

It would not trouble me to be called a pig - pigs are very intelligent animals, and their biology is similar to ours in many ways, apparently, (I am no expert on these things.) But if a Moslem were to decide to call me a pig, then he, and his entire family, become pigs too, because all of mankind is one species, and we are all siblings.

Interestingly. the bible mentions Jesus calling some of the Jews as 'snakes', 'vipers' (Matt 3:7, Matt 23:33) and 'children of the devil'. Taking cue from your logic, does that mean all of us, Christians and non-Christians, are slimy develish snakes?

Far worse, all of mankind is made in the image of God, so his swinish metaphor extends to the Almighty. Can the image of God, even in its lowest representation, be compared with a pig? Will God forgive such blasphemy?

Let me guess. If we are supposedly poisonous viper, and as you claimed we are 'made in the image of God'... what follows then?

Humans are not pigs. Those who are closest to swinish behaviour are those who use such labels of their brothers and sisters.

According to the bible, Jesus did insinuate that some people are swine and do not 'cast pearls over swines'.

 

[Catherineanne]

Is this hyprocricy or what?

The Islamic zakat and the Christian tithe are not very far apart. Other than the amount paid, the Christian tithe is an amount given to your Lord (1 Cor 16:2, 2 Cor 9:7). How the amount is divided between the Church and the ministries is one question, but generally Christians agreed that the money is for the advancement of Christianity!

You are mistaken.

Christians give for the benefit of the poor, and do not place conditions relating to our faith on that giving. The benefit to us, if there is one, is from Our Lord telling us it is more blessed to give than to receive. So we give money, time or other aid, freely and without strings, and we receive treasure in heaven.

If you want to regard this as hypocricy, then feel free.

Is not the Christian tithe given to the poor under the veil of Christian evangelization?

No.

I have no problem if Muslim zakat is given to Muslims who need them most.

I am disgusted if Christian tithe is given to non-Christians on the hidden agenda that they were to convert the heathens.

You are projecting the evil of your own faith onto ours. You are mistaken in every point you make.

Christian alms are given without strings. You need only be disgusted with those of your own faith who withhold money from those who are starving if they are of the wrong faith, and give only to Moslems. As I have already said, this is not charity but evil, and it will not be counted as good by God. Anyone behaving in this way is omitting one of the five pillars of Islam from their life.

I, on the other hand, need not be ashamed of my faith. Our Lord said, freely you have received, freely give. That is the standard to which we work.

I suggest you Google Christian Aid and find out for yourself.