Breaking communion?

Shiranui117

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Hi folks,

I'm talking with a friend about Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism (I'm doing my best to explain my favoring the former, he's trying to persuade me of the latter), and he asked me a question which I don't have a full answer for.

What does it mean when two Orthodox churches break communion with one another?

Does it mean that the churches stop commemorating each other and praying for each other during the Eucharistic offering and that the faithful of one church can't receive in the other church? Is there anything more to it than that?
 

archer75

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You guys should go easier on yourselves. After all, you're just various sects of Catholicism to most of the world anyway.
Why "two"?

Huh. You changed it to "various" but it still says "two" on my thread.

Why various, then? You just mean anyone that looks Orthodox but is out of communion with canonical Orthodoxy?
 
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Why "two"?

Huh. You changed it to "various" but it still says "two" on my thread.

Why various, then? You just mean anyone that looks Orthodox but is out of communion with canonical Orthodoxy?
I think he meant the reformation.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I think he means most Protestants don't know the difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism?

But to be fair, dear brother, just because someone else doesn't understand, doesn't mean we should ignore what we believe.

There are far more Catholics and Orthodox in the world than any particular Protestant denomination. Yet (forgive me I'm not trying to attack you here) ... I know you don't like having Vineyard confused with Pentecostalism? If most Catholics and Orthodox (thus "most of the [Christian] world" don't know the difference, does that mean you should forget any differences and stop acknowledging them?

I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this one, and I suspect you wouldn't agree in the case of turning it around, as I have done, recalling your own position.

I hope you don't see this as any kind of attack. God be with you. :)

You guys should go easier on yourselves. After all, you're just various sects of Catholicism to most of the world anyway.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hi folks,

I'm talking with a friend about Orthodoxy vs. Catholicism (I'm doing my best to explain my favoring the former, he's trying to persuade me of the latter), and he asked me a question which I don't have a full answer for.

What does it mean when two Orthodox churches break communion with one another?

Does it mean that the churches stop commemorating each other and praying for each other during the Eucharistic offering and that the faithful of one church can't receive in the other church? Is there anything more to it than that?

This is also not a really common thing, and the effort is to heal divisions. Of course, the Church is made up of people, so it can get messy at times. It has been since the time of the Apostles. But schism within the Church is considered a very serious problem.

That should tell you something, that we have been unable to restore ongoing communion between Rome and Orthodoxy in a thousand years. Our differences are simply too great.
 
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archer75

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The little mini-schisms that happen in our time interest me. Those I've read about seem always to have some obviously bad or at least non-theological, non-ecclesiological reason at their origin. I'm thinking of the HOCNA business and of course all the trouble with the MP, the ROCOR, and the Metropolia in the 20th century.
 
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Shiranui117

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Is schism the same thing as breaking communion with someone? I know Rome and Antioch were out of communion with one another because Rome refused to recognize St. Meletios as the rightful patriarch, but does anyone know of other examples?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Is schism the same thing as breaking communion with someone? I know Rome and Antioch were out of communion with one another because Rome refused to recognize St. Meletios as the rightful patriarch, but does anyone know of other examples?

there was the Schism with the East and Rome for refusing to accept the 5th Council, then the West and Rome after they did accept the 5th Council to name a glaring one.
 
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Willie T

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I think he means most Protestants don't know the difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism?

But to be fair, dear brother, just because someone else doesn't understand, doesn't mean we should ignore what we believe.

There are far more Catholics and Orthodox in the world than any particular Protestant denomination. Yet (forgive me I'm not trying to attack you here) ... I know you don't like having Vineyard confused with Pentecostalism? If most Catholics and Orthodox (thus "most of the [Christian] world" don't know the difference, does that mean you should forget any differences and stop acknowledging them?

I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this one, and I suspect you wouldn't agree in the case of turning it around, as I have done, recalling your own position.

I hope you don't see this as any kind of attack. God be with you. :)
I didn't take it that way, at all. I just meant that you guys (that's all of you —EO, GO, RO, RCC, etc. and et al) pretty much do the same things. You have special rule books you spend months learning, uniformed priests that tell you what you are to believe, overly ordinate services, foreign languages, tons of icons and figurines, worship "helps" for sale in the foyers, prayer cards, smoke swinging, bells, hand-feeding of the Eucharist....... I imagine you get the idea.
I've only actually been, in person, to RCC, and GO services, but I've seen the others online, and they really do look pretty much the same. So, I was just saying that since you all already have a lot going for isolationism from the rest of us, you really probably should work a little harder at remembering that you should stand together a little tighter.
 
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archer75

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I didn't take it that way, at all. I just meant that you guys (that's all of you —EO, GO, RO, RCC, etc. and et al) pretty much do the same things. You have special rule books you spend months learning, uniformed priests that tell you what you are to believe, overly ordinate services, foreign languages, tons of icons and figurines, worship "helps" for sale in the foyers, prayer cards, smoke swinging, bells, hand-feeding of the Eucharist....... I imagine you get the idea.
I've only actually been, in person, to RCC, and GO services, but I've seen the others online, and they really do look pretty much the same. So, I was just saying that since you all already have a lot going for isolationism from the rest of us, you really probably should work a little harder at remembering that you should stand together a little tighter.
Well, I guess GO and RO and go under EO rather than stand alongside it, if we're going to nitpick, but I agree that there are serious questions about the usefulness of serving in a language that most of the layfolk (or even clergy) do not understand (OCA parishes generally do not do this, and I know there are English-language ROCOR parishes as well - and maybe in other jurisdictions as well - exceptions made in my mind, of course, for parishes that mostly serve people who don't understand English well or at all).

Also, and I say this in no way as a dig, you haven't experienced it if you've just seen it online. Further, there is a meaning - whether you or I like that meaning or not - to just about everything that is done. Some people, even some not interested in becoming part of the communion, have found it valuable to learn a bit about that.

That said...if the shoe fits...

Edit: by "if the shoe fits," I meant "maybe we EO could be a wee bit more charitable to the RCC and Anglicans...and others...and ourselves."
 
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I didn't take it that way, at all. I just meant that you guys (that's all of you —EO, GO, RO, RCC, etc. and et al) pretty much do the same things. You have special rule books you spend months learning, uniformed priests that tell you what you are to believe, overly ordinate services, foreign languages, tons of icons and figurines, worship "helps" for sale in the foyers, prayer cards, smoke swinging, bells, hand-feeding of the Eucharist....... I imagine you get the idea.
I've only actually been, in person, to RCC, and GO services, but I've seen the others online, and they really do look pretty much the same. So, I was just saying that since you all already have a lot going for isolationism from the rest of us, you really probably should work a little harder at remembering that you should stand together a little tighter.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy have similarities but they are as different from each other as Evangelicals are from Catholics.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I didn't take it that way, at all. I just meant that you guys (that's all of you —EO, GO, RO, RCC, etc. and et al) pretty much do the same things. You have special rule books you spend months learning, uniformed priests that tell you what you are to believe, overly ordinate services, foreign languages, tons of icons and figurines, worship "helps" for sale in the foyers, prayer cards, smoke swinging, bells, hand-feeding of the Eucharist....... I imagine you get the idea.
I've only actually been, in person, to RCC, and GO services, but I've seen the others online, and they really do look pretty much the same. So, I was just saying that since you all already have a lot going for isolationism from the rest of us, you really probably should work a little harder at remembering that you should stand together a little tighter.

But actually ... of the things you listed, some we don't share with Catholics, and for very important reasons.

Catholics have the Catechism yes, everything codified. Orthodoxy doesn't. We learn the faith as we are preparing to be received into the Church, but it's not a matter of piles of doctrines - our concern ultimately is much more focused on practice and in many cases we oppose trying to explain some things that God has not revealed and the scholastic approach that leads Catholics to develop doctrine. We are very opposed to that approach in fact. So yes, it takes time and preparation to be received, but not at all for the same reasons.

Other than the dogmas of the Church and some doctrines if we ask, the priest isn't there to tell us what to do or believe. He's there as a helper when we need him. Our priest pushes us out of the "nest" when we become members and makes it very clear that it is OUR responsibility to seek truth, to seek God. I don't know if Catholic priest's are different or not, but that's not how we do things.

Nothing is for sale in our foyer (narthex?) ... we do have candles to light, and donations can be made for them. There is a parish bookstore but to be honest - it doesn't see a lot of business. Most people never buy anything. It's run by the women's charitable association. The Church itself sells nothing at all.

Language is interesting. Orthodoxy has always held it as important to have the Liturgy in the language of the people. At times we have developed alphabets and have always brought words and concepts with missions to accomplish this. The US is a unique situation because except for Alaska, Orthodoxy did not come here as a mission but with immigrants - often fleeing their counties of origin. So the language of the people was wherever they came from. Catholicism by contrast seems to hold Latin in regard as some kind of sacred language and has its services in that language (sometimes) just for that reason. That is completely opposite Orthodox thinking.

We are actually opposed to statues for Scriptural and spiritual reasons, and while Catholics have in some cases adopted icons, we are actually opposed in this too. They like realism in paintings and realistic statues - our icons are deliberately non-realistic, again for theological reasons.

Yes, we both have ordained priests, we both use incense in the services, we both practice Holy Communion based on ancient beliefs, we both have ornate houses of worship, and so on. There are those superficial similarities, but that is because those aspects of worship go back into Christian and Jewish antiquity and are reflected in Scripture.

I do understand that Protestants who don't know the details might not recognize a difference. Honestly, folks in my parish (mostly Orthodox immigrants) wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the last Vineyard fellowship I went to and the last Assembly of God.

But just because you can't see it or don't understand it, doesn't mean there aren't differences. And you're only describing rather superficial things. The REAL differences are in how we see God, and man, and sin, and salvation. When we have such differences as that, it's a pretty serious thing.

It's not really a question of how various Eastern Orthodox differ. We are essentially the same and in communion with one another. But we see the western Roman Catholics as very different.

Regarding the OP, the schisms within Orthodoxy are generally limited and seem to be over matters other than doctrine - often ecclesiastical procedures.

Of course none of this may matter to you. And if that's so, that's ok. :) I am clarifying partly to prevent general misunderstandings.

God be with you. :)
 
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Willie T

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But actually ... of the things you listed, some we don't share with Catholics, and for very important reasons.

Catholics have the Catechism yes, everything codified. Orthodoxy doesn't. We learn the faith as we are preparing to be received into the Church, but it's not a matter of piles of doctrines - our aorta he ultimately is much more focused on practice and in many cases we oppose trying to explain some things that God has not revealed and the scholastic approach that leads Catholics to develop doctrine. We are very opposed to that approach in fact. So yes, it takes time and preparation to be received, but not at all for the same reasons.

Other than the dogmas of the Church and some doctrines if we ask, the priest isn't there to tell us what to do or believe. He's there as a helper when we need him. Our priest pushes us out of the "nest" when we become members and makes it very clear that it is OUR responsibility to seek truth, to seek God. I don't know if Catholic priest's are different or not, but that's not how we do things.

Nothing is for sale in our foyer (narthex?) ... we do have candles to light, and donations can be made for them. There is a parish bookstore but to be honest - it doesn't see a lot of business. Most people never buy anything. It's run by the women's charitable association. The Church itself sells nothing at all.

Language is interesting. Orthodoxy has always held it as important to have the Liturgy in the language of the people. At times we have developed alphabets and have always brought words and concepts with missions to accomplish this. The US is a unique situation because except for Alaska, Orthodoxy did not come here as a mission but with immigrants - often fleeing their counties of origin. So the language of the people was wherever they came from. Catholicism by contrast seems to hold Latin in regard as some kind of sacred language and has its services in that language (sometimes) just for that reason. That is completely opposite Orthodox thinking.

We are actually opposed to statues for Scriptural and spiritual reasons, and while Catholics have in some cases adopted icons, we are actually opposed in this too. They like realism in paintings and realistic statues - our icons are deliberately non-realistic, again for theological reasons.

Yes, we both have ordained priests, we both use incense in the services, we both practice Holy Communion based on ancient beliefs, we both have ornate houses of worship, and so on. There are those superficial similarities, but that is because those aspects of worship go back into Christian and Jewish antiquity and are reflected in Scripture.

I do understand that Protestants who don't know the details might not recognize a difference. Honestly, folks in my parish (mostly Orthodox immigrants) wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the last Vineyard fellowship I went to and the last Assembly of God.

But just because you can't see it or don't understand it, doesn't mean there aren't differences. And you're only describing rather superficial things. The REAL differences are in how we see God, and man, and sin, and salvation. When we have such differences as that, it's a pretty serious thing.

It's not really a question of how various Eastern Orthodox differ. We are essentially the same and in communion with one another. But we see the western Roman Catholics as very different.

Regarding the OP, the schisms within Orthodoxy are generally limited and seem to be over matters other than doctrine - often ecclesiastical procedures.

Of course none of this may matter to you. And if that's so, that's ok. :) I am clarifying partly to prevent general misunderstandings.

God be with you. :)
Yes, it does matter to an extent. I've been to GO services with my in-laws, and I was a little perplexed that each time I might ask about why something was done, or what a Greek prayer meant, all I ever got from any of them was "I dunno." I actually seemed to know more about why they did some of the things they did than any of my relatives knew.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, it does matter to an extent. I've been to GO services with my in-laws, and I was a little perplexed that each time I might ask about why something was done, or what a Greek prayer meant, all I ever got from any of them was "I dunno." I actually seemed to know more about why they did some of the things they did than any of my relatives knew.

yeah, that does happen, but that is the anomaly and not the norm.
 
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archer75

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Yes, it does matter to an extent. I've been to GO services with my in-laws, and I was a little perplexed that each time I might ask about why something was done, or what a Greek prayer meant, all I ever got from any of them was "I dunno." I actually seemed to know more about why they did some of the things they did than any of my relatives knew.
That is unfortunate, but is not the case in plenty of parishes. You can find that kind of thing anywhere. Hardly limited to the liturgical communions.

I went to a "Scripture only" church for years with my family and it was certainly not the case that everyone was some kind of expert on scripture, or even oriented to it at all. The point is not "other people do it too" -but that that is a problem that you can find literally anywhere.
 
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