Born This Way

[CoreyD]

Yes.

I'm not talking about choosing someone of the same gender because the opposite gender treated you badly. Nor choosing someone of the same gender because you have two mothers, for example, who teach you that all males are evil and after only one thing.
I'm talking about the basic biological urge, for want of a better word, which causes a person to be sexually attracted to someone else. People say that you can't help who you fall in love with". Are you saying that you can; that you sit down and choose the person you're going to be attracted to, get butterflies in the stomach over or - to be crude - get aroused by? Is that a deliberate, planned choice, or something that just happens?

I'm saying that that just happens. I was never drawn to, or had romantic/sexual feelings about girls. If I had, then, for me, that would have been normal and fancying, or trying to make myself feel attracted to men, would have been abnormal.

So, you do believe that abnormalities can be considered normal.

Well if you know of people who've said to their hormones/sexual urges "I have made a decision and am choosing to be with someone of the same gender. I order you to only let me fancy people of that gender" - I stand corrected.
I have heard people saying that they knew they were gay but suppressed it, went along with marriage, and even having children, because they were ashamed of being gay or that they knew their family/culture would not accept it. But that's not what I was referring to.

I think it more likely that either I haven't explained properly or you have not understood what I meant.

This is interesting. You don't believe a person can "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" - Romans 12:2? Would that not require effort, on the person's part?
You believe advertisers spend millions of dollars in advertisements, for you to sit and watch them, with no effect at all on your mind to alter the way you think and act?

 

[CoreyD]

Yes & no.
We were all born defective because of Original Sin.
But that does not Justify said defects.

Conditions that are only viable differences, such as

• left-handedness,

Left-handedness seems to be a gift. Sort of like those rare gifts few people have,

• intellectual giftedness [clinical geekiness] &

Intellectual giftedness seems to suggest a person with a rare gift. Would that be those with a high IQ?

• benign autism [clinical nerdiness]

Benign autism would fall under the category of a defect, or effect of sin, wouldn't it?

What Are the Three Levels of Autism?
Levels of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) are defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition (DSM-5). The 5th edition criteria for autism diagnosis provides three clear levels based on the patient’s requirements for support. These levels of autism allow specialists to make more refined diagnoses, allowing for more effective treatment plans and helping caretakers better understand individuals’ symptoms and needs.

do not compel one to sin.

Being a sinner - that is, born in sin, with it's effects genetically imprinted, would not lead to sinning - practicing sin, or doing what is wrong in God's eyes.
A person with autism is not any more sinful than a person in very good health.

 

[Strong in Him]

The expression "normal for them" reminded me of so many things at once. Some, I think may be a bit too complicated here, and could lead to another topic, so I'd better keep it simple.
A person saying something is normal to me, does not make it normal. The person is just saying, they accept what is, and will live with it, so they convince themselves that what they have is normal.
I am interested in if you think that way of thinking is right, because this is an argument most common in atheism - the view that we decide what is right and wrong. In other words, choosing for themselves what is right and wrong.

I was specifically referring to disabilities; I did not mention choosing right or wrong.

If a person is born with Down's Syndrome, then that, for them, is normal. If they are taken to nurseries or play groups where other children have Down's Syndrome, that will reinforce their view of normality.
In the past, doctors have actually said to parents "your child is not normal; put them in a home and forget about them." Nowadays, some parents seem to be saying "my Down's child is not normal; I'm going to subject them to surgery to make them look more normal".

I'm glad you experienced the arrangement that is right in God's eyes.
It is always right, and that is recognized as the best way, even by people who don't take church seriously.

It may well be considered to be the best way; these days, it is not the norm. People have blended families, two mothers/fathers, step parents etc etc.

Cohabiting is normal to persons who disregard God's law, and who consider the Bible "old fashioned".
So, yes, what is "normal" today, are the sad consequences of disobedience to God.

Yes, they are and I'm not condoning it.
I am, and have been, asking for a definition of "normal".

So "normal" does not translate to good. Does it?

I never said that it did.
I asked "what is 'normal? Normal in whose eyes?"
If you'd said "I'm defining God's standards and teachings as normal, and anyone who wanders away from those, is not normal", we might at least have not had this debate.

Then you are missing the point.
Read the OP, again. Study it. Then tell me in your own words, what you get from it.

I'm not clear what your point was, which is why I have been asking.
Your OP said "we have been born this way, therefore it cannot be wrong. Does that logic follow?"

I replied, in post #23, that I suspected your question was about sexuality, rather than disabilities; but that it is not wrong for a person to be born with disabilities, or of a different sexuality to us.

If you really meant to say, "being gay is wrong. If a person says they were born gay and it is not wrong because it's how they are", that would, at least, have made the OP, and your position, clearer.
You didn't say that, and now you seem to be berating me for not realising that was what you meant.

God's thoughts toward his people, for their good, shows that calamity - the effects of sin, is bad, in his eyes.
You think that's out of context? Okay, but I don't agree, nor see how.

The verse is quoted out of context because God's people were in exile because of their sin. They were complaining that God had abandoned them - even though all the prophets had said that they would be punished if they continued to disobey him. They wanted God to rescue them. God's answer, through Jeremiah, was "I'll rescue you in 70 years. In the meantime, settle in the land, build houses, buy fields and pray for your enemies to prosper, because when they prosper, so will you. FOR I know the plans I have for you; plans to give you a future and a hope."
In other words, they should be content to remain in exile because God was with them and working IN their situation.

But the verse is often quoted by Christians to mean "don't worry, God has a plan for you and everything will be ok." You quoted it alongside the statement, "God does not want disabilities for anybody." The verse does not mention disabilities - so it is being quoted out of context of the rest of the chapter.

I though all Christians understood what normal is, even on an academic level.

As I asked in an earlier post; normal for who?
If someone is born with a disability and it is all they have ever known - using a wheelchair/guide dog/sign language is what is normal for them. Even though they may soon be told that everyone else is normal and there is something wrong with them.

Even without God's standards, normal, is defined, not as something we can claim, but what it means to be normal.
I think you were saying a lot more, since you spoke of "someone's normal", or "what's normal to them". That, isn't something we can just ignore.

So what is normal?
If I am waiting for a bus, I very often talk to others at the bus stop. If I see someone who seems to be worried/sad I smile at them. If I see someone who is working out which bus they need to take, I ask if I can help. Being sociable/friendly/helpful is normal to me; I thought it was the same for everyone.
But it's not. Some people might be autistic and can't recognise if someone needs help or what their body language is saying. Or is they do, they may consider it is none of their business, and don't offer to help. What is normal to me is not to someone else.
My husband is a whiz with computers and very knowledgeable. He can sort out any problems that I have, easily and quickly. Emailing, writing documents, spreadsheets etc is normal to him - and he can't understand why it isn't for everyone. What is normal to him is hard work for someone else.
A former Minister's wife has a gift for hospitality. Not only does she invite people for meals, she has invited people she hardly knew to stay with them. She once said, "it's normal; doesn't everybody do that?"

If a child is born with a disability; yes, the parents may well want to find treatment or a cure. But if it's something that can't be changed - genetic - then wise parents will teach the child that they are ok/acceptable as they are, and not try to make them like everyone else who they perceive to be 'normal'. Generally speaking, it is bullies who tell a child that they're not normal, and treat them differently because of it.

 

[Strong in Him]

This is interesting. You don't believe a person can "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" - Romans 12:2?

Of course I do.
Are you saying that you think a person can force themselves nit to be gay?

 

[Sabertooth]

Would that be those with a high IQ?

Yes.

Benign autism would fall under the category of a defect, or effect of sin, wouldn't it?

Autism Subtypes...

The common feature of all autism is that we are dys social (not anti -social); that is, we are social klutzes who still desire to connect w...

autlanders.blogspot.com

I have both giftedness & ASD1, which is called twice exceptional or 2e.

 

[Paulos23]

Even without God's standards, normal, is defined, not as something we can claim, but what it means to be normal.
I think you were saying a lot more, since you spoke of "someone's normal", or "what's normal to them". That, isn't something we can just ignore.

It is because there is no general normal. What is normal for one group isn't for another. "Normal" is what we make of it, and everyone's idea of normal is different.

You can't codify "normal" since people change and therefore what is "normal" changes.

 

[Robban]

"We are born this way. Therefore, it cannot be wrong."
Have you heard that before? Does the logic follow?

"We are born this way. Therefore, nothing is wrong with us. It's perfectly normal."

Spoiler

Normal
Anophthalmia
Müllerian agenesis

Hence, this must be wrong.
Treatments - Cosmetic surgery
Treatment - Lab-grown vagina
_

Does that logic follow?

What is the logic in everyone is required to do repentence?

Repentence is to return, return to the source of life and return your soul to the pure state is was in on coming into this world.


How can one return to where they have never been?

Deuteronomy 28:6


"May your departure from this world be as free of sin as was your entry into the world"


(Talmud, Bava Metzia 107a)

 

[CoreyD]

I was specifically referring to disabilities; I did not mention choosing right or wrong.

If a person is born with Down's Syndrome, then that, for them, is normal. If they are taken to nurseries or play groups where other children have Down's Syndrome, that will reinforce their view of normality.
In the past, doctors have actually said to parents "your child is not normal; put them in a home and forget about them." Nowadays, some parents seem to be saying "my Down's child is not normal; I'm going to subject them to surgery to make them look more normal".

I'll like to ask three question
1. Do you think it is normal to be born like this?

2. Do you consider this normal?

3. Do you think that people today pervert things, and what does that mean to you?

It may well be considered to be the best way; these days, it is not the norm. People have blended families, two mothers/fathers, step parents etc etc.

Yes, they are and I'm not condoning it.
I am, and have been, asking for a definition of "normal".

I never said that it did.
I asked "what is 'normal? Normal in whose eyes?"
If you'd said "I'm defining God's standards and teachings as normal, and anyone who wanders away from those, is not normal", we might at least have not had this debate.

I'm not clear what your point was, which is why I have been asking.
Your OP said "we have been born this way, therefore it cannot be wrong. Does that logic follow?"

I'm sorry the OP was not clear for all. My apologies.

I replied, in post #23, that I suspected your question was about sexuality, rather than disabilities; but that it is not wrong for a person to be born with disabilities, or of a different sexuality to us.

If you really meant to say, "being gay is wrong. If a person says they were born gay and it is not wrong because it's how they are", that would, at least, have made the OP, and your position, clearer.
You didn't say that, and now you seem to be berating me for not realising that was what you meant.

I'm sorry. I did not intend the OP to be my saying what is, and what isn't.
I usually like people to arrive at the most reasonable answer for themselves.
I find that to be an excellent way of answering questions or reason with persons, and it's a method Jesus himself used.

If it becomes necessary to spell out things for a person, it might not help that person.
While this method foes not require the listener to be at any great level of maturity, it does require some maturity, but for those that are at that stage, it's very effective, I find.

The verse is quoted out of context because God's people were in exile because of their sin. They were complaining that God had abandoned them - even though all the prophets had said that they would be punished if they continued to disobey him. They wanted God to rescue them. God's answer, through Jeremiah, was "I'll rescue you in 70 years. In the meantime, settle in the land, build houses, buy fields and pray for your enemies to prosper, because when they prosper, so will you. FOR I know the plans I have for you; plans to give you a future and a hope."
In other words, they should be content to remain in exile because God was with them and working IN their situation.

I would say, in other words, God had good intentions for them, which included peace - good, rather than bad.

But the verse is often quoted by Christians to mean "don't worry, God has a plan for you and everything will be ok." You quoted it alongside the statement, "God does not want disabilities for anybody." The verse does not mention disabilities - so it is being quoted out of context of the rest of the chapter.

I believe we were discussing the connection between disabilities and bad, for my part, and good, for your part.
So, I quoted the text with that in mins.

As I asked in an earlier post; normal for who?
If someone is born with a disability and it is all they have ever known - using a wheelchair/guide dog/sign language is what is normal for them. Even though they may soon be told that everyone else is normal and there is something wrong with them.


So what is normal?
If I am waiting for a bus, I very often talk to others at the bus stop. If I see someone who seems to be worried/sad I smile at them. If I see someone who is working out which bus they need to take, I ask if I can help. Being sociable/friendly/helpful is normal to me; I thought it was the same for everyone.
But it's not. Some people might be autistic and can't recognise if someone needs help or what their body language is saying. Or is they do, they may consider it is none of their business, and don't offer to help. What is normal to me is not to someone else.
My husband is a whiz with computers and very knowledgeable. He can sort out any problems that I have, easily and quickly. Emailing, writing documents, spreadsheets etc is normal to him - and he can't understand why it isn't for everyone. What is normal to him is hard work for someone else.
A former Minister's wife has a gift for hospitality. Not only does she invite people for meals, she has invited people she hardly knew to stay with them. She once said, "it's normal; doesn't everybody do that?"

Thank you for being kind to people.

If a child is born with a disability; yes, the parents may well want to find treatment or a cure. But if it's something that can't be changed - genetic - then wise parents will teach the child that they are ok/acceptable as they are, and not try to make them like everyone else who they perceive to be 'normal'. Generally speaking, it is bullies who tell a child that they're not normal, and treat them differently because of it.

I think as parents, we can tell our children they were born with a disease - something wrong, while at the same time showing love and affection, and expressing our love, that builds confidence in them.
They will get bullied, regardless of what we tell them and since I know children are very observant, you won't be able to sweet talk them out of their emotions.

What experience do you have with this?

Of course I do.
Are you saying that you think a person can force themselves nit to be gay?

We asked scientists earlier, and they said it's not genetic.
We asked God earlier, and he said it's not something others have not done.
Perhaps we can get a third opinion though. We could ask Jesus.
Luke 13:24 -“Make every effort [strive, yes. Force yourself] to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'll like to ask three question
1. Do you think it is normal to be born like this?

2. Do you consider this normal?

3. Do you think that people today pervert things, and what does that mean to you?


I'm sorry the OP was not clear for all. My apologies.


I'm sorry. I did not intend the OP to be my saying what is, and what isn't.
I usually like people to arrive at the most reasonable answer for themselves.
I find that to be an excellent way of answering questions or reason with persons, and it's a method Jesus himself used.

If it becomes necessary to spell out things for a person, it might not help that person.
While this method foes not require the listener to be at any great level of maturity, it does require some maturity, but for those that are at that stage, it's very effective, I find.


I would say, in other words, God had good intentions for them, which included peace - good, rather than bad.


I believe we were discussing the connection between disabilities and bad, for my part, and good, for your part.
So, I quoted the text with that in mins.


Thank you for being kind to people.


I think as parents, we can tell our children they were born with a disease - something wrong, while at the same time showing love and affection, and expressing our love, that builds confidence in them.
They will get bullied, regardless of what we tell them and since I know children are very observant, you won't be able to sweet talk them out of their emotions.

No, but you show your kids love by accepting them. Nobody wants to feel like they are wierd.

We asked scientists earlier, and they said it's not genetic.
We asked God earlier, and he said it's not something others have not done.
Perhaps we can get a third opinion though. We could ask Jesus.
Luke 13:24 -“Make every effort [strive, yes. Force yourself] to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

What does that quote have to do with anything in the discussion? I always find it puzzling why Christians think that clobber passages applies to anybody but them...

 

[CoreyD]

It is because there is no general normal. What is normal for one group isn't for another. "Normal" is what we make of it, and everyone's idea of normal is different.

May I ask where you read this, or who decided it?

2. pervert​

noun. ['ˈpɝːvɝt, pɝˈvɝːt'] a person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior.

Antonyms​

• sadist
• [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]
• conform
• equal
• normal
• uncover
• unneurotic

You can't codify "normal" since people change and therefore what is "normal" changes.

People change, and try to change laws and values too, as well as what is normal. However, is that one of the things that inspires rioting, coups, and other forms of rebellion?
Not everyone has that thinking.

 

[CoreyD]

No, but you show your kids love by accepting them. Nobody wants to feel like they are wierd.

What does that quote have to do with anything in the discussion? I always find it puzzling why Christians think that clobber passages applies to anybody but them...

How did you reach the conclusion that is a "clobber" passage?
It's an answer to a question. Sometimes we don't like answers we don't want to see, but why is that, in your case?

 

[FireDragon76]

How did you reach the conclusion that is a "clobber" passage?
It's an answer to a question. Sometimes we don't like answers we don't want to see, but why is that, in your case?

It's not that I don't like it. I don't like how Christians typically use it, which is to score some cheap argument over serious debate.

 

[CoreyD]

It's not that I don't like it. I don't like how Christians typically use it, which is to score some cheap argument over serious debate.

Let's be honest with each other. Did you read the post, or did your eye catch the last statement, causing you to jump to a conclusion?
I was asked a question, and I quoted Jesus words as an answer.
The question was, Are you saying that you think a person can force themselves nit to be gay?
The answer was, “Make every effort [strive, yes. Force yourself] to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

I think you focused in on the part you didn't like, and concluded that I was using that to "clobber" someone.
Let's be honest. Am I not correct?

 

[FireDragon76]

Let's be honest with each other. Did you read the post, or did your eye catch the last statement, causing you to jump to a conclusion?
I was asked a question, and I quoted Jesus words as an answer.
The question was, Are you saying that you think a person can force themselves nit to be gay?
The answer was, “Make every effort [strive, yes. Force yourself] to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

I think you focused in on the part you didn't like, and concluded that I was using that to "clobber" someone.
Let's be honest. Am I not correct?

No. Sexual orientation is beyond somebody's control, it is not a choice. Anybody who says otherwise is peddling pseudoscience. There is no good evidence anybody has ever been "cured" of being gay.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'll like to ask three question
1. Do you think it is normal to be born like this?

Conjoined twins are certainly not the norm, no.
So it's not normal in the sense of regular; happening every day.
It's not normal in the sense that something has obviously gone wrong somewhere. And if at all possible, the parents will no doubt want the children to be separated.
It will be normal for the twins because that will be all they know, and have known. For them, being separated will be abnormal - though that's not to say that it shouldn't be attempted, if possible.

2. Do you consider this normal?

A number of women smoke through pregnancy - I think my in laws did.
It's certainly against all advice - for health reasons.

3. Do you think that people today pervert things, and what does that mean to you?

Of course.
Almost everything that's invented/discovered /introduced can be twisted or used for a purpose other than what was intended. E.g. state benefits are introduced for those who are too unwell to work - there will be those who try to work the system and claim for things like bad backs, which can't be seen or easily measured. My previous illness, M.E. would have been very easy to fake; there isn't a test for it, and anyone can claim extreme tiredness.

I'm sorry the OP was not clear for all. My apologies.

No problem.
It's probably my fault for answering before I asked you to clarify what was being asked.

I'm sorry. I did not intend the OP to be my saying what is, and what isn't.
I usually like people to arrive at the most reasonable answer for themselves.
I find that to be an excellent way of answering questions or reason with persons, and it's a method Jesus himself used.

Yes, it is. But I wasn't sure what you were asking.
The first line of your thread said "we were born this way, therefore it cannot be wrong".
The thing is that there are two meanings to the word "wrong".
Conditions like Down's syndrome, Cerebral Palsy etc are genetic abnormalities, agreed; something has gone wrong. These days there are scans available and a woman might decide to abort a child that had abnormalities - especially if there was more than one.
But it is not morally wrong to allow a child to be born with Down's syndrome. And to say to that person that they were abnormal, their condition was wrong etc might make them feel that they were a mistake and their life was worthless. So someone with Down's syndrome would be correct in saying "I was born this way; it's not wrong." It's how they are.

We measure normality as being born healthy, with no disabilities, the correct number of limbs in working order etc. That is correct in the sense that it is the norm. If someone were born with a condition the parents' instinct would be to get it treated - for health reasons, so that the child had a better quality of life.
But if the child had a genetic condition, or a disability that could not be treated, it would be wrong to let them think that they were in some way "abnormal", "defective" or that their life was not as important as anyone else's. I'm not saying that you have said that - but a disabled person could say "I was born this way, therefore it is not wrong."

Thank you for being kind to people.

To me, kindness is normal.

I think as parents, we can tell our children they were born with a disease - something wrong, while at the same time showing love and affection, and expressing our love, that builds confidence in them.

Personally, I would not want to imply that there was something wrong with them.
I imagine I would have tried to explain it on a level they could understand, while affirming that they, as a person, were loved, valued and just the same as anyone else.

What experience do you have with this?

Of disability?
I volunteered in a school for physically handicapped children, was a care worker for adults with learning disabilities (used to be called Mental Handicapped) and then trained as a nurse in this area.

We asked scientists earlier, and they said it's not genetic.

No, there is no "gay gene"; but neither is it taught.
I don't believe it can be controlled either. I am pretty sure that sexual attraction is an automatic response; people don't choose to make their hearts beat faster and whatever else happens when they see someone that they find attractive.
Some people feel that ay about people of their own gender.

We asked God earlier, and he said it's not something others have not done.

??
Double negative = it is something that others have done.

Luke 13:24 -“Make every effort [strive, yes. Force yourself] to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Someone who is gay can still be a Christian, follow Jesus and find the narrow way.

Now I don't know what sorts of conversations they have with God about being gay, sexually active (if they are) and his followers. I have never asked; it's not my concern or my business. I am just told to love others as Jesus loved me. And I do not believe that treating gay, or disabled, people as "abnormal", that they are wrong or their life is a mistake or weird in some way, is being very loving.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

"We are born this way. Therefore, it cannot be wrong."
Have you heard that before? Does the logic follow?

"We are born this way. Therefore, nothing is wrong with us. It's perfectly normal."

Spoiler

Normal
Anophthalmia
Müllerian agenesis

Hence, this must be wrong.
Treatments - Cosmetic surgery
Treatment - Lab-grown vagina
_

Does that logic follow?

I am disappointed this isn’t a discussion about Lady Gaga like I thought it would be.

 

[Astrid]

Do we have a choice when it comes to sexuality?
I wasn't told I had to fancy boys - even though many at my all girl's school had boyfriends. I wasn't put into a room and told to choose.

There may be room for some limited
range of choice. I don't know.

I never had a chance to make any choice.
Though I had the usual teenage girl interest in boys.
Born that way

But-

An unspeakable ordeal in the hands of a sadist
left me with a fear and distrust of men that
is never going away.

I'm far from advocating anything but I was left
with only one choice - other than an empty lonely life.

 

[Strong in Him]

An unspeakable ordeal in the hands of a sadist
left me with a fear and distrust of men that
is never going away.

I'm far from advocating anything but I was left
with only one choice - other than an empty lonely life.

I'm truly sorry to hear that, and I hope you can find the peace and healing that you need.

I would think it perfectly possible that an experience like that might put you off men and/or not be able to trust them. And I suppose that some women might turn to other women as a response to that experience - I don't know; I haven't researched it.

But that wasn't what I was referring to.
You said that you had the usual teenage girl interest in boys - so did I, after a while.
But someone who was gay would not have an interest in boys. They wouldn't, I imagine, be drawn to them; they might be repulsed by them. That's what I'm talking about - the kind of animal magnetism, if you like, that causes a girl to be drawn to, and take an interest in, boys; or boys, girls. That is what I don't believe we can choose.
Someone might believe they are gay, not want/be allowed to own up to it, or be ashamed of it and marries someone of the opposite gender in a bid not to hurt their family/culture. I've heard/read about that - and the sad thing is that they've only felt free to be who they are after the parents have died or if the culture changes. They may have had to choose whether to show, or repress, their sexuality. But I doubt they will have made a choice about whether or not to be sexually attracted to someone of the same gender.

 

[Astrid]

I'm truly sorry to hear that, and I hope you can find the peace and healing that you need.

I would think it perfectly possible that an experience like that might put you off men and/or not be able to trust them. And I suppose that some women might turn to other women as a response to that experience - I don't know; I haven't researched it.

But that wasn't what I was referring to.
You said that you had the usual teenage girl interest in boys - so did I, after a while.
But someone who was gay would not have an interest in boys. They wouldn't, I imagine, be drawn to them; they might be repulsed by them. That's what I'm talking about - the kind of animal magnetism, if you like, that causes a girl to be drawn to, and take an interest in, boys; or boys, girls. That is what I don't believe we can choose.
Someone might believe they are gay, not want/be allowed to own up to it, or be ashamed of it and marries someone of the opposite gender in a bid not to hurt their family/culture. I've heard/read about that - and the sad thing is that they've only felt free to be who they are after the parents have died or if the culture changes. They may have had to choose whether to show, or repress, their sexuality. But I doubt they will have made a choice about whether or not to be sexually attracted to someone of the same gender.

The limited choice i referred to is that
sexuality isn't so rigid.
Some are attracted to both sexes,
maybe 50-50 , 70-30, 90- 10 maybe.

I think the wise choice is to go with social
convention where possible.

I wish I could.

My one try was such a disaster. Nobody
would repeat that.

I'm not inherently attracted to women.
If it were not her, something happened to her,
I doubt I have it in me to go looking.

But with her I made a deliberate choice-she
for her part took a big chance with me.

It works for us. Tho in my heart of hearts I'm,
I'm kind of, conventional?

I'd give anything for a conventional married life.

That's not an option, that's not a choice I can make.

 

[CoreyD]

No. Sexual orientation is beyond somebody's control, it is not a choice.

I understand you believe that, as many people do. Why do you believe it though? Is it something you have verifiable evidence of, or you just feel that way?

Anybody who says otherwise is peddling pseudoscience. There is no good evidence anybody has ever been "cured" of being gay.

I don't know. about that I think we can both agree that we humans tend to gravitate toward things we prefer.
Is there any evidence that being gay is an inherited genetic trait?
If so, I'd be interested in seeing that data.